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  • I've actually wondered whether Eddowes' murder was a kind of "FU" to police. If these murders were done by one man, he surely could not have been at all ignorant of the media and police furore over the spate of murders - and that night, instead of hunting the many quieter, more deserted places he could have chosen, he picked a place where, if I have it right, the only occupied building was the home a policeman, and which was patrolled every 15 mins or so, like clockwork. Which begs the question - was this deliberate? I think it might have been. The possibility is there.

    And that would account for the rage exhibited in the facial mutilations, as well as as apparent change in skill level -- if his "mission" had changed slightly, the removal of organs not the primary goal, but making some sort of point, or taunting, and directed by rage, then the level of skill exhibited could very feasibly have been reduced, as whatever the primary motive was had been subsumed, I don't think entirely 'replaced', by a need to communicate his anger and probably a sense of 'superiority' that so many serial killers exhibit.

    Dr. Brown said at the inquest:

    [Coroner] Would the removal of the kidney, for example, require special knowledge? - It would require a good deal of knowledge as to its position, because it is apt to be overlooked, being covered by a membrane.

    and:

    Coroner] Have you any opinion as to what position the woman was in when the wounds were inflicted? - In my opinion the woman must have been lying down. The way in which the kidney was cut out showed that it was done by somebody who knew what he was about.

    Dr. Sequiera said:

    I think that the murderer had no design on any particular organ of the body. He was not possessed of any great anatomical skill.

    -- But he "knew what he was about", and could locate a kidney in poor lighting conditions, in an extremely stressful situation. And I think he might have *chosen* that situation, despite the stress and risk, for reasons other than just randomly passing poor hapless Kate Eddowes in the street.

    How do we know, for example, that he had not been lurking in a building nearby for days on end, just hoping a woman who fit his needs came bumbling along at the most opportune moment? If he got her in the square at 1.30-1.35 and cut her throat immediately, he'd have had almost ten minutes to vent his rage and harvest a few organs...

    It isn't a lot of time, and if he was adding "extras" to the murder (the facial damage) to make a point (to cops or Eddowes or just himself, who knows) -and- was in some kind of fit of rage, that would be very different from a situation where he was in complete control and had only his original goal in mind. So he did a 'butcher's job', moreso than usual.

    And then with Mary Kelly, we can see both rage and skill, played out because he was not under the same constraints, the same pressure to hurry and achieve it all at once..
    Last edited by Ausgirl; 02-19-2015, 04:21 PM.

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    • I forgot to mention, in conjunction with the resident Pearce, and Watkins on his beat, there was also Morris the watchman- and also the vicinity of Mitre Square being on a jursidictional boundary, there was James Harvey nearby as well.

      Hardly a brilliant place to commit an incredibly high-profile, complex murder and mutilation, eh? Unless the location has a point to it.

      Which, as I've said, might well in turn have affected the level of skill exhibited, with more to do, but also vastly more risk involved. And a somewhat different agenda.
      Last edited by Ausgirl; 02-19-2015, 04:47 PM.

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      • Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
        Hello J.

        "What makes you think that the Killer of Polly Nichols was more 'skilled' than the killer of Kate Eddowes?"

        George Bagster Phillips.

        Cheers.
        LC
        Hello Lynn,

        That is a good answer. I am not the first to suggest this, probably not even the thousandth, but couldn't more ambient light have explained the cleaner removal of Chapman's uterus compared to Eddowes's?

        I understand there's a theory about at the moment saying the killer didn't take organs, that actually they were pilfered before the autopsy. If you believe that theory, you could argue the apparently expert removal of Chapman's uterus was because it actually was removed by an expert at the mortuary. I won't suggest that though cause I believe the Ripper took the organs.

        Probably shouldn't even have mentioned it.
        Last edited by J6123; 02-19-2015, 08:50 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by J6123 View Post
          Hello Lynn,

          That is a good answer. I am not the first to suggest this, probably not even the thousandth, but couldn't more ambient light have explained the cleaner removal of Chapman's uterus compared to Eddowes's?

          I understand there's a theory about at the moment saying the killer didn't take organs, that actually they were pilfered before the autopsy. If you believe that theory, you could argue the apparently expert removal of Chapman's uterus was because it actually was removed by an expert at the mortuary. I won't suggest that though cause I believe the Ripper took the organs.

          Probably shouldn't even have mentioned it.
          Eddowes uterus removal was more technically proficient, though not neater.
          The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

          Comment


          • Ultimately Ripperology is about making up stories and arguing about their relative plausibility. Until new evidence is discovered (and its not exactly forthcoming) that's all we can really do.

            The multiple killers question comes down to a subjective call on your part. Which do you find more plausible - that a killer changed his style over the course of several months, or that there were multiple killers active at the same time comfortable with killing and mutilating prostitutes on the street, and skilled enough to do that without getting caught.

            I fall into the orthodox camp: to me, it's more plausible that a killer might have been sloppier in a darker square, or forced to cut up rather than down because of Eddowes's clothing, than it is that somebody committing their first ripping would be able to get away with murder in Mitre Square.

            Comment


            • Mary Nicholls - Ripper

              Annie Chapman - Ripper

              Liz Stride - Ripper Not

              Catherine Eddowes - Ripper

              Mary Kelly - Ripper Not

              Comment


              • So there was still a serial killer called the Ripper, then?

                Comment


                • puzzling

                  Hello Mike. Thanks.

                  Yes, the apron piece is puzzling.

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • bumbling

                    Hello Ausgirl. Your post brings up an interesting question. How did Kate come bumbling along? And why?

                    Cheers.
                    LC

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                    • cutting remarks

                      Hello J. Thanks.

                      Actually, my interest lies not in supposed organ removal. Some, indeed, saw skill v no skill in them. I could have made heavy weather out of it but deliberately chose not to.

                      Nor, I think, do the inquest remarks depend on that. Rather, it is a comment on the neatness of the knife wounds--some are adept at cutting, others not.

                      Cheers.
                      LC

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                      • reading

                        Hello Errata. Thanks.

                        Completely agree. Looks like someone had read up on surgical techniques but was a tyro.

                        Cheers.
                        LC

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                          Hello J. Thanks.

                          Actually, my interest lies not in supposed organ removal. Some, indeed, saw skill v no skill in them. I could have made heavy weather out of it but deliberately chose not to.

                          Nor, I think, do the inquest remarks depend on that. Rather, it is a comment on the neatness of the knife wounds--some are adept at cutting, others not.

                          Cheers.
                          LC
                          But Lynn that would support the argument that Chapman was taken to one mortuary Eddowes to a different one, and that at those mortuaries two different people removed the organs using different methods. One person more skilled that the other !

                          Comment


                          • Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes where murdered and mutilated in the dark with his shadow over them too if there is any light at all. Stride, also night. MJK, probably in the dark too but the clothes in the fireplace had burned for a bit. Maybe blitzed her by first throwing the clothes on the fire.

                            In terms of skill, the fact it was dark means either he was anatomically knowledgable enough to mutilate and remove organs the way he wanted or got lucky. You can either go for the smash and grab hypothesis (no skill) or medical skill (previous experience). I go for the latter and I don't believe pitch black smash amd grab could do what was done, but that's another topic.

                            The thing is that the multiple killer hypothesis needs to account for organ removal in darkness by many killers. I don't think in annuals of crime that there has ever been anything even remotely like that? The probability is a way too low. Not impossible, just highly improbable.

                            What is more probable is one person whose MO deviates depending on his confidence level.

                            Nichols, not so confident (people where coming).
                            Chapman, very confident (despite been trapped in a backyard).
                            Stride, very uncomfortable (was seen by Schwarz).
                            Eddowes, confident (as long as he did it quickly).
                            Kelly, highest degree of confidence (had all the time he could want)

                            There is a direct correlation between JtRs confidence levels depending on environmental factors and the degree to which he mutilates and how he mutilates.

                            I think this sort of line of reasoning is devastating to the multiple killer hypothesis.
                            Bona fide canonical and then some.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Batman View Post
                              Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes where murdered and mutilated in the dark with his shadow over them too if there is any light at all. Stride, also night. MJK, probably in the dark too but the clothes in the fireplace had burned for a bit. Maybe blitzed her by first throwing the clothes on the fire.

                              In terms of skill, the fact it was dark means either he was anatomically knowledgable enough to mutilate and remove organs the way he wanted or got lucky. You can either go for the smash and grab hypothesis (no skill) or medical skill (previous experience). I go for the latter and I don't believe pitch black smash amd grab could do what was done, but that's another topic.

                              The thing is that the multiple killer hypothesis needs to account for organ removal in darkness by many killers. I don't think in annuals of crime that there has ever been anything even remotely like that? The probability is a way too low. Not impossible, just highly improbable.

                              What is more probable is one person whose MO deviates depending on his confidence level.

                              Nichols, not so confident (people where coming).
                              Chapman, very confident (despite been trapped in a backyard).
                              Stride, very uncomfortable (was seen by Schwarz).
                              Eddowes, confident (as long as he did it quickly).
                              Kelly, highest degree of confidence (had all the time he could want)

                              There is a direct correlation between JtRs confidence levels depending on environmental factors and the degree to which he mutilates and how he mutilates.

                              I think this sort of line of reasoning is devastating to the multiple killer hypothesis.
                              Hi batman
                              Agree. Plus for those who don't think chapman and eddowes were killed by the same person-both had their intestines pulled out and draped over their shoulder.
                              I'd like to see them try and explain that one away.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                Hi batman
                                Agree. Plus for those who don't think chapman and eddowes were killed by the same person-both had their intestines pulled out and draped over their shoulder.
                                I'd like to see them try and explain that one away.
                                Many have tried before and will indeed try again with a copycat theory.

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