'the biggest blunder in the search for Jack the Ripper'

[PhiltheBear]

Hi Bride. The knife is slicing as it travels through. The blood can't come out until the opening is made, and the opening isn't made until the knife has moved on. Now, of course, I'm talking about quick, single slices, such as that made on Stride. If you're sawing at the neck, you'll get covered in blood.

The only slight problem with that is that the carotid artery is a) one of the largest blood vessels and b) is under high pressure. If you cut a carotid it spurts. It's very, very difficult to stop blood pulsing out - there are special surgical clamps made for such a purpose. When I used to be a St John Ambulance First Aid instructor we used to advise people that if a carotid was severed the only way to stop it bleeding was to push your fingers into the cut and try and hold the bleeding end closed with pressure from thumb and forefinger, which was going to be difficult because of the slipperiness of the blood and the pressure in the artery. Even if you could manage that it was highly likely that blood would escape.

You also needed to pray that a paramedic turned up quickly with a carotid clamp.

I don't think there's very much chance of a knife blade severing a carotid artery without getting blood on it - but depending on the swiftness of the cut it's possible that the blood could be 'wiped' as it passes through adjacent flesh.

[Bridewell]

Sobering Up

Nit picking again are you I said it is unlikely. She would not have been fed following her arrest due to her being drunk so thats 8 hours without food.

Alcoholics prefer drink to food

Hi Trevor,

I agree that it is unlikely the police would have fed her, not only because she was drunk, but because the intention was evidently to release her as soon as she sobered up. She does seem to have done that remarkably quickly though, don't you think. 8.45pm (or thereabouts) she is so drunk she can't stand unsupported; 1am she's supposedly sober. Most drunks don't sober up to that extent in four and a quarter hours. What do you think:
Still drunk, but no longer incapably so?
The alternative is that, when arrested, she was nowhere near as drunk as she made herself out to be?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Thanks

The only slight problem with that is that the carotid artery is a) one of the largest blood vessels and b) is under high pressure. If you cut a carotid it spurts. It's very, very difficult to stop blood pulsing out - there are special surgical clamps made for such a purpose. When I used to be a St John Ambulance First Aid instructor we used to advise people that if a carotid was severed the only way to stop it bleeding was to push your fingers into the cut and try and hold the bleeding end closed with pressure from thumb and forefinger, which was going to be difficult because of the slipperiness of the blood and the pressure in the artery. Even if you could manage that it was highly likely that blood would escape.

You also needed to pray that a paramedic turned up quickly with a carotid clamp.

I don't think there's very much chance of a knife blade severing a carotid artery without getting blood on it - but depending on the swiftness of the cut it's possible that the blood could be 'wiped' as it passes through adjacent flesh.

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the additional information on this. I can see where Tom is coming from, but I couldn't see how a major artery could be severed without leaving at least a trace of blood. You've expressed my chain of thought much more eloquently than I could have done, and from the background of medical training. Much appreciated.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

I agree that it is unlikely the police would have fed her, not only because she was drunk, but because the intention was evidently to release her as soon as she sobered up. She does seem to have done that remarkably quickly though, don't you think. 8.45pm (or thereabouts) she is so drunk she can't stand unsupported; 1am she's supposedly sober. Most drunks don't sober up to that extent in four and a quarter hours. What do you think:
Still drunk, but no longer incapably so?
The alternative is that, when arrested, she was nowhere near as drunk as she made herself out to be?

Regards, Bridewell.

The police dont feed drunks til they sober up simply because drunks have a habit of vomitting and with a full stomach they are likley to choke on recently digseted food.

As to how drunk she really was is open to how drunk the arresting officer perceived her to be i think the offence was "drunk and incapable" obvioulsy after arrest and being taken to the station the Staiton Sgt would have to be satisified that given the circumstances the arrest was lawful.

As you say some drunks sober up quicker than others but that doesnt always mean to say that will get them out quicker if a police station is busy with prisoners they will wait till it quietens down before having the time to assess when a person is fit to be released. In some police stations today they will be given a breathelyser test to asses their state.

Drunks like all prisoners are supposed to be checked at least every hour in some case half hour checks. In the case of drunks in the first few hours if they are sleeping they will be checked and left to sleep until they usually wake up themselves. Edowes would have probably been tired as well as drunk which would have added to sleep time etc.

In the case of Eddowes this would seem to be the case that she woke up and started to shout and sing. In any event the policy would be to get rid of drunks early morning before the shifts change over.

[caz]

If he brought something with him for wiping etc, and used it after Stride, why could he not have used it again after Eddowes? If he discarded it en route to the City because it was too saturated with blood, wouldn't it have been found? Or if he kept it on him, but the apron proved a better bet, why not discard both of them together?

I think he brought something separate with him for lining his pockets or wrapping the body parts, while the apron piece proved useful to wipe his soiled hands and knife before leaving it where it would cast suspicion on the occupants of a building large enough to keep the cops occupied while he got his head down for a few hours or got right out of the area. If he knew the residents were mainly Jewish, and the location was also picked for this reason, the message may have been written by him to keep the focus firmly on Jews and blame.

Love,

Caz
X

[mariab]

And I've seen videos.

What kind of videos? Snuff? Slaughtering animals? (Which I hope not.) If it's just horror Tom, they're not realistic.

The only slight problem with that is that the carotid artery is a) one of the largest blood vessels and b) is under high pressure. If you cut a carotid it spurts. {...} but depending on the swiftness of the cut it's possible that the blood could be 'wiped' as it passes through adjacent flesh.

I'd be interested to hear what Hunter would say to this, since he's got some experience with, well, venison.

Only experience I got on this is deeply hacked fingers through a knife or through my ice skates blades (which I keep SUPER sharp) and yep, it takes a couple seconds until the blood begins to pour out, and def no blood on the knife and especially no blood on the blades. But cut your hand while opening a can, and the blood ends up on the can as well.
I think the thing to retain from this is that cutting a throat swiftly from behind will leave less blood (and body fluids) on a knife than trying to extract organs without really knowing what you're doing. (Duh.)

[lynn cates]

hack job

Hello Cris. I think you have well described a quasi surgical attempt by an incompetent. I agree.

Well done.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

As to how drunk she really was is open to how drunk the arresting officer perceived her to be i think the offence was "drunk and incapable" obvioulsy after arrest and being taken to the station the Staiton Sgt would have to be satisified that given the circumstances the arrest was lawful.

I don't know if it was the case in 1888 - I suspect not - but, in the modern era, the expectation would be that someone who was D & I would be taken to a hospital rather than a police station.

Drunks like all prisoners are supposed to be checked at least every hour in some case half hour checks. In the case of drunks in the first few hours if they are sleeping they will be checked and left to sleep until they usually wake up themselves. Edowes would have probably been tired as well as drunk which would have added to sleep time etc.

Again, I don't know what the practise was then but, in the post PACE era a drunk must be roused and spoken to at least every 30 minutes and also required to perform a simple task.

As you say some drunks sober up quicker than others

I didn't actually say that but I concede that, to a certain extent, it is true. What I don't accept is that a woman who was drunk and incapable at 8.45pm was sober at 1am the following morning. She may have been able to walk out of the police station, but sober? Not a chance. Either she wasn't sober when she was released, or she wasn't really that drunk when she was arrested.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

money

Hello Neil.

"Bearing in mind she had enough money to end up drunk against a shop front."

Or, perhaps, had access to such monies?

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't know if it was the case in 1888 - I suspect not - but, in the modern era, the expectation would be that someone who was D & I would be taken to a hospital rather than a police station.

No not the case unless plainly obvious they were ill or injured in some way

Again, I don't know what the practise was then but, in the post PACE era a drunk must be roused and spoken to at least every 30 minutes and also required to perform a simple task.

I have alreday covered that in previous post

I didn't actually say that but I concede that, to a certain extent, it is true. What I don't accept is that a woman who was drunk and incapable at 8.45pm was sober at 1am the following morning. She may have been able to walk out of the police station, but sober? Not a chance. Either she wasn't sober when she was released, or she wasn't really that drunk when she was arrested.

Regards, Bridewell.

Well having reviewed the evidence I feel she was drunk and incapable at the time she was arrested. I suspect that she would not have been released unless she couldnt walk straight. That would have been clearly seen from the walk from the cells to the front desk, and the brief converation that ensued there.

[Monty]

Well having reviewed the evidence I feel she was drunk and incapable at the time she was arrested. I suspect that she would not have been released unless she couldnt walk straight. That would have been clearly seen from the walk from the cells to the front desk, and the brief converation that ensued there.

Eddowes was deemed sober enough to be released.

Hutt engaged her is conversation and his testimony indicates she was aware of the situation, her presonses were lucid.

And yes Trevor, nit picking. As opposed to making unfounded sweeping statements.

Monty

[PhiltheBear]

Only experience I got on this is deeply hacked fingers through a knife or through my ice skates blades (which I keep SUPER sharp) and yep, it takes a couple seconds until the blood begins to pour out, and def no blood on the knife and especially no blood on the blades. But cut your hand while opening a can, and the blood ends up on the can as well.

There's very little blood pressure in the capilliaries in your hand - the carotid is a large artery supplying blood to the brain at high pressure.

I think the thing to retain from this is that cutting a throat swiftly from behind will leave less blood (and body fluids) on a knife than trying to extract organs without really knowing what you're doing. (Duh.)

Cutting a throat isn't the same as cutting a carotid. The carotid is at the side of the neck - not the front. If you cut a throat basically you impair breathing. Cut a throat round towards the back of the neck and you stop the breathing (and ability to call for help) and cause massive blood loss to the brain very quickly.

[Tom_Wescott]

Bride and PTB,

Of course the artery is going to spurt. I'm not a dumbass. My point is that it's an irrefutable medical fact that between cut and spurting, there is a delay. A very brief delay, but much greater than the 1/10th of a second it takes your fast moving hand to wizz the 6 inches past the cut to get the knife and yourself out of blood's way. This is the law of physics. It's a fact. I say again, that in the case of Stride, there would have been no blood on the killer or his knife unless he wanted there to have been.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

There's very little blood pressure in the capilliaries in your hand - the carotid is a large artery supplying blood to the brain at high pressure.

Absolutely.
Still, wondering if the blood from the carotid springs out away from the knife.

[Tom_Wescott]

What kind of videos? Snuff? Slaughtering animals? (Which I hope not.) If it's just horror Tom, they're not realistic.

There used to be many, many videos online of foreign terrorists or what not cutting throats. We're talking a lot of years ago. Very disturbing stuff, but not near as disturbing as watching a man be burned alive. That's no way to go. And thank you for telling me that horror movies aren't real. But FYI, the best special effects men create their effects from hard research. If you want many of Tom Savini's throat slashes from his earlier slasher films, you are more or less seeing what a real throat cutting looks like.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott