Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Simon Wood 4 hours ago.
General Discussion: My profile of the ripper - by Wickerman 4 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Wickerman 4 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Wickerman 4 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by Simon Wood 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (27 posts)
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - (13 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (3 posts)
General Discussion: My profile of the ripper - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Thompson, Francis

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #101  
Old 11-03-2015, 05:47 PM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 531
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
There is a major inherent problem in all of this. And I mean major. No matter what pattern you come up with that corresponds to the dates of the murders you have no way of knowing if that is the pattern that Jack was adhering to. Since there would seem to be an almost limitless number of patterns you could never be actually sure that you had stumbled upon the correct one. And since Jack is dead no one can confirm that the pattern you decided upon is the correct one.

Also, the dates could correspond to something very mundane like days that fell into a week where he had worked overtime and therefore had a little more money to take to the pubs and spread around. It could also be dates when he was alone and the other people that he lived with had gone out.

So it would seem that specific patterns are limitless and mundane explanations could be many.

It might be time to grab a beer and call it a day on this one. No disrespect meant.

c.d.
Fair enough. It's just an idea.
__________________
Author of

"Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

http://www.francisjthompson.com/
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 11-06-2015, 12:49 PM
YankeeSergeant YankeeSergeant is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upstate New york, USA
Posts: 252
Default

I have a query, if I may be so presumptuous. As a Catholic of Scottish and Irish extraction, I know there are over 900 recognized saints from that area. the whole idea of saints days being meaningful to our killer seem to me a bit far fetched. Having said that, I have studied the Ripper for well over twenty years and will be the first to admit how little I know. Is it possible there is no connection to saints? First, we would have to know that Jack was a Catholic or of the Church of England. How would a practicing catholic or Anglican justify murder on a saints day. People do horrible things, (The saint Bartholomew Day Massacre comes to mind) but to violate the 10 commandments on a saint's day would not be the act of a practicing Catholic or Anglican. At least not by murder. What are everyone's thoughts on this?
__________________
Neil "Those who forget History are doomed to repeat it." - Santayana
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 11-06-2015, 02:18 PM
Karl Karl is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YankeeSergeant View Post
I have a query, if I may be so presumptuous. As a Catholic of Scottish and Irish extraction, I know there are over 900 recognized saints from that area. the whole idea of saints days being meaningful to our killer seem to me a bit far fetched. Having said that, I have studied the Ripper for well over twenty years and will be the first to admit how little I know. Is it possible there is no connection to saints? First, we would have to know that Jack was a Catholic or of the Church of England. How would a practicing catholic or Anglican justify murder on a saints day. People do horrible things, (The saint Bartholomew Day Massacre comes to mind) but to violate the 10 commandments on a saint's day would not be the act of a practicing Catholic or Anglican. At least not by murder. What are everyone's thoughts on this?
In this regard it is worthwhile noting that the commandment about murder does not extend to righteous killing. So when either secular or religious authorities have condemned people to death, this was not considered murder. Nor is there any tradition in Europe for suspending warfare on saints days. And as you yourself pointed out, there was the Saint Bartholomew's Day massacre, which although internationally condemned was nevertheless ordered and carried out by practicing Catholics. And if a crazed religious fanatic, there are no limits to how a murderer might justify his actions. He could kill on Christmas and see no sin in it.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 11-07-2015, 01:28 AM
Richard Patterson Richard Patterson is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 531
Default

So just to be clear the sequence of thinking that I followed was:

The name of the place - Whitechapel - sounds religious and the church that it was named after was built by Catholics. Did the dates have anything to do with Catholicism too? Yes. the professions associated with the Catholic saints for those days were very much the same as the police suspects. It's just an idea.
__________________
Author of

"Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

http://www.francisjthompson.com/
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 11-09-2016, 09:47 AM
Karl Karl is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
So just to be clear the sequence of thinking that I followed was:

The name of the place - Whitechapel - sounds religious and the church that it was named after was built by Catholics. Did the dates have anything to do with Catholicism too? Yes. the professions associated with the Catholic saints for those days were very much the same as the police suspects. It's just an idea.
I have already demonstrated that the professions associated with the Catholic saints was not remotely the same as the police suspects - unless the killer had a time machine or psychic powers.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 11-09-2016, 09:59 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Patterson View Post
There is only a 0.000003 chance that the Whitechapel murderer was not a religious fanatic. In Catholicism, occupations are protected by patron saints that are venerated in different days of the year. The days for the patron saints for butchers, soldiers, midwives, and doctors, fell upon dates of the Ripper's murders. Because these occupations used knives and needed anatomical skill the police suspected, questioned and detained them. A religious fanatic could have chosen to kill on these dates in the belief that he was fulfilling some kind of divine mission. Here the dates of each murder and their patron saints.

August 31st.
Saint Raymund the patron of midwives.

September 8th.
Saint Adrian the patron saint of Butchers and Soldiers.

September 30th.
Saint Jerome the patron saint of Doctors.

November 9th.
Saint Theodor the patron saint of Butchers and Soldiers.

Here is a list of occupations, their patron saints and their dates, other than on the dates of the murders.

Doctors. 3.
Comas, September 27. Luke the Evangelist, October 18. Pantaleon, July 27.

Butchers. 2
George, April 23 & May 6. Peter the Apostle, June 29.

Midwives 1
Pantaleon (again) July 27.

Soldiers 5
Elgius, December 1. George, April 23 (again). Ignatius of Loyola, July 31. Joan of Arc, May 30. Martin of Tours, November 11.

In a year with 15 patron days matching these occupations, there is a 1 in 24 chance that any date would fall on these patron saint days. The chance that four dates in a row would fall on one of these saint days is 1 in 344,861*. If it were a one in a hundred chance it would be significant, let alone in the hundreds of thousands. This is the only real lead we have had in the past 127 years. Until they can be discounted, all suspects that showed signs of religious fervor should be investigated. Of the 500 known suspects, the only one that is credible and fits this description is the one I have brought forwards. This is the failed priest, with surgical skill, Francis Thompson.

*This is a rough figure. (365/15)*(364/15)*(363/15)*(362/15) It does not take into account other compounding factors, such as the events occurring either on a weekends or bank holidays or that some dates have the same saint.
Hi,

Ideal types combined with dates is not biographic data.

Instead of connecting a real individual in the past and his dates to the murder dates, one connects an ideal type to the dates. "The religious maniac".

The connection therefore has no value. It is merely a theoretical construction without a real person from the past in it.

Regards, Pierre
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 11-09-2016, 10:26 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,493
Default

Richard Patterson:
There is only a 0.000003 chance that the Whitechapel murderer was not a religious fanatic. In Catholicism, occupations are protected by patron saints that are venerated in different days of the year. The days for the patron saints for butchers, soldiers, midwives, and doctors, fell upon dates of the Ripper's murders. Because these occupations used knives and needed anatomical skill the police suspected, questioned and detained them. A religious fanatic could have chosen to kill on these dates in the belief that he was fulfilling some kind of divine mission. Here the dates of each murder and their patron saints.

August 31st.
Saint Raymund the patron of midwives.

September 8th.
Saint Adrian the patron saint of Butchers and Soldiers.

September 30th.
Saint Jerome the patron saint of Doctors.

November 9th.
Saint Theodor the patron saint of Butchers and Soldiers.

Here is a list of occupations, their patron saints and their dates, other than on the dates of the murders.

Doctors. 3.
Comas, September 27. Luke the Evangelist, October 18. Pantaleon, July 27.

Butchers. 2
George, April 23 & May 6. Peter the Apostle, June 29.

Midwives 1
Pantaleon (again) July 27.

Soldiers 5
Elgius, December 1. George, April 23 (again). Ignatius of Loyola, July 31. Joan of Arc, May 30. Martin of Tours, November 11.

Actually, I do think that a patron saint may have played a peripheral role in the Ripper saga. Not one of the above, though!

Im being awfully secretive these days...
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.