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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #11  
Old 03-25-2016, 09:11 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Not in this case. There is a reliable source, an original statement written by Arnold to the police where the descriptions of the person he talked to are included.

Regards, Pierre
Arnold is not a reliable source. sorry.
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2016, 09:26 AM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Probably. But wasnīt there some sighting of someone looking like a "soldier" in the company of Martha Tabram before she was murdered? Is there any good source for this?

Regards, Pierre
But London was filled with thousands of soldiers.
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  #13  
Old 03-25-2016, 11:19 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Arnold is not a reliable source. sorry.
No, since Arnold is not a source himself. He is dead.

But the police source giving his statements is reliable. And that does not mean that the contents of the source have a high validity. There might be a tendency.

You have to make a distinction between living persons as sources and historical sources in which dead people speak.

Regards, Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 03-25-2016 at 11:22 AM.
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  #14  
Old 03-25-2016, 11:24 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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But London was filled with thousands of soldiers.
Yes, certainly. But thousands of soldiers did not walk around in London telling people about future murders or crime scenes.

Regards, Pierre
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  #15  
Old 03-25-2016, 11:35 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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http://casebook.org/official_documen...t_chapman.html
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Probably. But wasnīt there some sighting of someone looking like a "soldier" in the company of Martha Tabram before she was murdered? Is there any good source for this?

Regards, Pierre
And also, wasnīt there some statements about Annie Chapman having been seen with a man looking like a "soldier"?

Yes. According to The Daily Telegraph (we donīt have the original inquest papers for Chapman), Timothy Donovan stated:

"She (Chapman) used to come and stay at the lodging-house on Saturdays with a man - a pensioner - of soldierly appearance, whose name I do not know" (my underscore).

Last edited by Pierre : 03-25-2016 at 11:47 AM.
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  #16  
Old 03-25-2016, 04:23 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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http://casebook.org/official_documen...t_chapman.html

And also, wasn't there some statements about Annie Chapman having been seen with a man looking like a "soldier"?

Yes. According to The Daily Telegraph (we donīt have the original inquest papers for Chapman), Timothy Donovan stated:

"She (Chapman) used to come and stay at the lodging-house on Saturdays with a man - a pensioner - of soldierly appearance, whose name I do not know" (my underscore).
The supposed pensioner was identified as Ted Stanley. It has been speculated that he was not a pensioner at all.



As far as John Arnold goes, I personally believe his story was not coincidental. I say that because of other circumstances tied in with his story that also seem coincidental. When you put these stories together, they may result in some truth.

[Coincidence]At the end of August, early September 1889, Texas journalist R. Harding Davis accompanied Inspector Henry Moore around Whitechapel and toured the murder sites. On their way back to Leman Street station they passed the very arches where the Pinchin torso was deposited. Moore remarked "Now, what a place for a murder that would be." A week later, the Pinchin torso was found. Then comes the John Arnold story and his lucky guess of a body deposited in Back Church Lane two days before it was deposited under the arches. His initial remark was that he obtained his information from a Police Inspector on Whitechapel High Street. I guess he may have overheard Harding's story being hashed over by some policemen. But somebody acted on the story two days later.

[Coincidence] John Arnold and William Wallace Brodie shared the same address in the Strand [2, Harvey's Buildings], very near the New Scotland Yard Building. Brodie claimed he was one of the Whitechapel murderers.

[Coincidence]Mr. Mellor, who became alerted when he heard the name "John Cleary" mentioned, stated he thought it was a man he knew that worked as a compositor for The Globe. He gave a full description of Cleary. A completely different man than John Arnold. Mr. Mellor is also the same man that found the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the garden of the Shelley estate.

[Coincidence]There was graffitti chalked up on the dead walls near the Pinchin arches that stated "John Cleary is a fool"

[Coincidence]On a black paling opposite the arch where the trunk was found the word "Lipski" was written in large chalk letters. The People,Sept 15, 1889(located by Rob Clack)

[Coincidence] The Private detective office of Charles LeGrand was located at #10 Agar Street in 1889. His address backed up to #2 Harvey's Buildings.

[Coincidence] The shoeblack, Michael Keating, one of three men found under the arches in the morning the body was discovered in Pinchin Street gave his address at 1, Osborn-street, Brick-lane. Ted Stanley said he heard of the murder of Annie Chapman from a shoeblack. Stanley was living at 1, Osborn street.

Pierre, do you ever use the search function before you start a thread?

Last edited by jerryd : 03-25-2016 at 04:36 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-25-2016, 11:52 PM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
The supposed pensioner was identified as Ted Stanley. It has been speculated that he was not a pensioner at all.



As far as John Arnold goes, I personally believe his story was not coincidental. I say that because of other circumstances tied in with his story that also seem coincidental. When you put these stories together, they may result in some truth.

[Coincidence]At the end of August, early September 1889, Texas journalist R. Harding Davis accompanied Inspector Henry Moore around Whitechapel and toured the murder sites. On their way back to Leman Street station they passed the very arches where the Pinchin torso was deposited. Moore remarked "Now, what a place for a murder that would be." A week later, the Pinchin torso was found. Then comes the John Arnold story and his lucky guess of a body deposited in Back Church Lane two days before it was deposited under the arches. His initial remark was that he obtained his information from a Police Inspector on Whitechapel High Street. I guess he may have overheard Harding's story being hashed over by some policemen. But somebody acted on the story two days later.

[Coincidence] John Arnold and William Wallace Brodie shared the same address in the Strand [2, Harvey's Buildings], very near the New Scotland Yard Building. Brodie claimed he was one of the Whitechapel murderers.

[Coincidence]Mr. Mellor, who became alerted when he heard the name "John Cleary" mentioned, stated he thought it was a man he knew that worked as a compositor for The Globe. He gave a full description of Cleary. A completely different man than John Arnold. Mr. Mellor is also the same man that found the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the garden of the Shelley estate.

[Coincidence]There was graffitti chalked up on the dead walls near the Pinchin arches that stated "John Cleary is a fool"

[Coincidence]On a black paling opposite the arch where the trunk was found the word "Lipski" was written in large chalk letters. The People,Sept 15, 1889(located by Rob Clack)

[Coincidence] The Private detective office of Charles LeGrand was located at #10 Agar Street in 1889. His address backed up to #2 Harvey's Buildings.

[Coincidence] The shoeblack, Michael Keating, one of three men found under the arches in the morning the body was discovered in Pinchin Street gave his address at 1, Osborn-street, Brick-lane. Ted Stanley said he heard of the murder of Annie Chapman from a shoeblack. Stanley was living at 1, Osborn street.

Pierre, do you ever use the search function before you start a thread?
Hi jerryd,

Actually quite interesting - thank you for bringing the points together. One little error. "R. Harding Davis", the reporter, was "Richard Harding Davis" who was one of the pre-eminent U.S. reporters from 1889 (when he covered the aftermath of the Johnstown, Pa. Flood disaster) through the Spanish American War (where he was a tremendous booster for the reputation of Lt. Col. Theodore Roosevelt and the Rough Riders) to the first sixteen years of the 20th Century (he died in 1916). He was working for several national news services, usually for Joseph Pulitzer's "New York World", and he was from Philadelphia, and usually worked out of New York City. He was not a "Texas" reporter, even if his by-line was somehow connected to Texas. Davis was a handsome man, and the model for the handsome, square jawed boyfriend of the "Gibson Girl".

Jeff
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  #18  
Old 03-26-2016, 12:06 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
The supposed pensioner was identified as Ted Stanley. It has been speculated that he was not a pensioner at all.



As far as John Arnold goes, I personally believe his story was not coincidental. I say that because of other circumstances tied in with his story that also seem coincidental. When you put these stories together, they may result in some truth.

[Coincidence]At the end of August, early September 1889, Texas journalist R. Harding Davis accompanied Inspector Henry Moore around Whitechapel and toured the murder sites. On their way back to Leman Street station they passed the very arches where the Pinchin torso was deposited. Moore remarked "Now, what a place for a murder that would be." A week later, the Pinchin torso was found. Then comes the John Arnold story and his lucky guess of a body deposited in Back Church Lane two days before it was deposited under the arches. His initial remark was that he obtained his information from a Police Inspector on Whitechapel High Street. I guess he may have overheard Harding's story being hashed over by some policemen. But somebody acted on the story two days later.

[Coincidence] John Arnold and William Wallace Brodie shared the same address in the Strand [2, Harvey's Buildings], very near the New Scotland Yard Building. Brodie claimed he was one of the Whitechapel murderers.

[Coincidence]Mr. Mellor, who became alerted when he heard the name "John Cleary" mentioned, stated he thought it was a man he knew that worked as a compositor for The Globe. He gave a full description of Cleary. A completely different man than John Arnold. Mr. Mellor is also the same man that found the thigh of Elizabeth Jackson in the garden of the Shelley estate.

[Coincidence]There was graffitti chalked up on the dead walls near the Pinchin arches that stated "John Cleary is a fool"

[Coincidence]On a black paling opposite the arch where the trunk was found the word "Lipski" was written in large chalk letters. The People,Sept 15, 1889(located by Rob Clack)

[Coincidence] The Private detective office of Charles LeGrand was located at #10 Agar Street in 1889. His address backed up to #2 Harvey's Buildings.

[Coincidence] The shoeblack, Michael Keating, one of three men found under the arches in the morning the body was discovered in Pinchin Street gave his address at 1, Osborn-street, Brick-lane. Ted Stanley said he heard of the murder of Annie Chapman from a shoeblack. Stanley was living at 1, Osborn street.

Pierre, do you ever use the search function before you start a thread?
Hi Jerry,

But, as far as I'm aware, the only source material for the "John Cleary is a fool" claim is R Michael Gordon's book which, in my opinion, is one of the worst true crime books ever written!
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  #19  
Old 03-26-2016, 12:21 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
http://casebook.org/official_documen...t_chapman.html

And also, wasnīt there some statements about Annie Chapman having been seen with a man looking like a "soldier"?

Yes. According to The Daily Telegraph (we donīt have the original inquest papers for Chapman), Timothy Donovan stated:

"She (Chapman) used to come and stay at the lodging-house on Saturdays with a man - a pensioner - of soldierly appearance, whose name I do not know" (my underscore).
And George Hutchinson was also described as being of "military appearance", but I doubt he was a soldier either! It's what I would call weak evidential support, but unfortunately some writers have constructed whole theories based upon such evidence.
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  #20  
Old 03-26-2016, 06:41 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Hi Jerry,

But, as far as I'm aware, the only source material for the "John Cleary is a fool" claim is R Michael Gordon's book which, in my opinion, is one of the worst true crime books ever written!
Times 13th September 1889

The detectives are searching for a man named Leary or Cleary, who on Sunday last went to a newspaper office and reported that a woman had been murdered in Backchurch-lane, Whitechapel. A full description of this man has been obtained, and it is confidently believed that before many hours his whereabouts will be known. A singular circumstance is that on many dead walls near the scene of the discovery are the words, written in chalk, "John Cleary is a fool." These words were seen early on Tuesday morning, and before anything was known of the man's visit to the newspaper office.
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