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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #121  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:06 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Books were still available, and people were more familiar with butchery than they are in today's pre-packed, freezer ready society.
There is no way on this earth that a butcher was responsible for removing the organs from Eddowes, or any of the others save for perhaps kelly.

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  #122  
Old 12-09-2018, 09:24 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
There is no way on this earth that a butcher was responsible for removing the organs from Eddowes, or any of the others save for perhaps kelly.

Correct, not even a butcher would have pierced vital organs while slashing others and making jagged cuts. That's someone with no knife skills or anatomical knowledge at all. As pointed out by Dr. Bond who was standing beside a Dr. Philips who was now abandoning medical claims since that second opinion popped up.
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  #123  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:26 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
There is no way on this earth that a butcher was responsible for removing the organs from Eddowes, or any of the others save for perhaps kelly.
I'm not suggesting that a butcher did. I was merely pointing out how easy it would be for someone to know/find out where the organs were.
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  #124  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:33 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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I'm not suggesting that a butcher did. I was merely pointing out how easy it would be for someone to know/find out where the organs were.
I think when it comes to organ removal, there is a big difference between reading about removing them, and actually being able to do it, especially in almost total darkness without a lot of practice.

As i have said before, for the killer to have removed Eddowes organs in the little time available to him he must have been as proficient, if not even more than Dr Browns expert, and I would suggest those persons were few and far between in 1888, and if the killer were of that category why would he take organs when he could have freely obtained them?

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  #125  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:40 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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That might be the preferred approach from a minimally invasive surgical perspective, but we're not talking about such surgery in either Eddowes' or Kelly's case, but evisceration with no regard to minimising damage to the body. I've not eviscerated a human, thankfully, but I've dissected enough rats to know that, once the abdomen is open and the intestines displaced, getting at any abdominal organ from the front is easy.
The kidneys will still be hidden by a membrane, I believe? And it would be as artful to remove them in Kelly's case as it would in Eddowes, I´d say. Whether that is truly an act requiring skill or not is something a medico is more suited to decide.
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  #126  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:47 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Joshua Rogan: Anyone used to viewing flesh as a commodity rather than a patient would likely know how to find and remove a kidney, as they are packed in the best fat in the body.

Possibly so, yes - and I am not pressing the point that Kellys murder was the act of a skilled medico or anatomist. The point I am pressing is that if it required skill to remove the Eddowes kidney, then it also required skill to do it with Kellys kidneys.
It is a question that seemingly cannot be put to rest.


Well, I've always thought that the holes in the ribcage were probably created to allow knife access to release the heart, but the quote from Hebbert that I posted earlier definitely said "cutting the ribs". Not bending. And he was there - the very next line says "As I saw the awful sight before any disturbances of the body, or interference with the room, I can vouch for the truth of the conditions"

There WAS cutting in the rib area, but it was cutting of the intercostals. I believe that is what Hebbert points to, since cutting the intercoastals is cutting the ribcage.
I believe that Bond - who took care to point out the cuts to the vertebrae of the neck (or is it throat...?) - would have told ut if the ribs themselves had been notched by the knife.
My own take on the cut intercostals is the it quite probably came about after the heart had been removed, and not for reasons of facilitating that removal.
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  #127  
Old 12-09-2018, 07:13 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Could below be the killer exploring how to open a human abdomen?

Nichols:

Henry Llewellyn, surgeon,
There were no injuries about the body till just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound
running in a jagged manner. It was a very deep wound, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. On the right side there were also three or four similar cuts running downwards. All these had been caused by a knife, which had been used violently and been used downwards. The wounds were from left to right, and might have been done by a left-handed person.

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  #128  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:57 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
Could below be the killer exploring how to open a human abdomen?

Nichols:

Henry Llewellyn, surgeon,
There were no injuries about the body till just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound
running in a jagged manner. It was a very deep wound, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. On the right side there were also three or four similar cuts running downwards. All these had been caused by a knife, which had been used violently and been used downwards. The wounds were from left to right, and might have been done by a left-handed person.

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Yes.

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10998
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  #129  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:28 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I think when it comes to organ removal, there is a big difference between reading about removing them, and actually being able to do it, especially in almost total darkness without a lot of practice.

As i have said before, for the killer to have removed Eddowes organs in the little time available to him he must have been as proficient, if not even more than Dr Browns expert, and I would suggest those persons were few and far between in 1888, and if the killer were of that category why would he take organs when he could have freely obtained them?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Good question Trevor, when you also imagine, in Chapmans case, that he is doing this with some 17 people I believe sleeping in the building and the yard windows that faced into the area by the cellar steps. It would seem to me that someone who would even attempt this had to have some confidence that he could pull this off without getting caught. The speed is an issue. This is someone who has done similar things before, in rapid succession. Processing.
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  #130  
Old 12-10-2018, 04:22 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Not much more complicated than cutting a head of cabbage from its stem, albeit a cabbage stem is thicker and tougher.
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