Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 11 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Simon Wood 3 hours ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Wickerman 5 hours ago.
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - by MrBarnett 6 hours ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by packers stem 7 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: "Ripperland" by Andrew Firth - by Herlock Sholmes 8 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - (21 posts)
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - (5 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (4 posts)
Non-Fiction: "Ripperland" by Andrew Firth - (4 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (2 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Media > Books > Non-Fiction

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #91  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:18 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,445
Default

Unfortunately didn't think my last post was hostile! It certainly wasn't intended to be, although as we take diametrically opposed views there is bound to be a large degree of disagreement.

Firstly, an overview. Serial killers can sometimes elaborate or evolve their ritualistic behaviour. For instance, Schlesinger refers to an offender who began with post mortem mutilation and progressed to dismemberment: http://jaapl.org/content/38/2/239.long However, I'm not aware of any cases where a serial killer as alternated between dismemberment and JtR style street killing. In fact, are there any examples of an offender who has alternated between dismemberment and any other kind of violent murder?

However, things are far more complicated than that. For instance, the Torso Perpetrator was very consistent in his ritualistic behaviour, and these rituals differed substantially from what we observe in the C5 murders.

Thus, the Torso perpetrator decapitated his victims, JtR didn't. This may have been ritualistic, or practical, I.e. to prevent identification. In any event, this "signature" is absent in all of the C5 cases, even though in Kelly's case at least, he presumably had more than enough time. This suggests to me that "JtR" lacked either the skill or the inclination to perform such an act.

The Torso victims were all stored: in the case of the Whitehall victim for up to 8 weeks, and Jackson for several days: she was last seen on the 31st May, but her remains were not discovered until 4th June. This ritual clearly meant something to the Torso perpetrator, considering the risk he must have been taking in not disposing of the remains straight away but clearly was not a consideration for JtR.

The Torso perpetrator scattered body parts all over London, like "pieces of a puzzle". JtR didn't, even though he had the perfect opportunity with Kelly, considering the number of body parts removed.

The Torso perpetrator either abducted his victims, and took them to his dismemberment site, or inveigled them. JtR didn't.

The Torso perpetrator dismembered all of his victims. JtR dismembered none of his, even though Kelly afforded him the perfect opportunity.

Geographical considerations. JtR operated within a remarkably small area, I.e. Whitechapel/Spitalfields. For instance, from Flower and Dean Street, all of the murder sites are within a range of 0.6 miles, with the exception of Mitre Square, which was 1.1 miles away. In contrast, Torso operated all over London: I have already referred to the fact that Jackson's remains were scattered over a wide area, and Rainham is 27 miles from Whitechapel.

What can we deduce from this? It is submitted that JtR lacked transport, or/and was psychologically unwilling to expand his range. It also suggests to me that JtR was a poor man-like the bulk of Whitechapel residents-who simply couldn't afford the extravagance of, say, a horse and cart, let alone stabling costs, feeding of animal, vet fees etc.

In contrast, Torso must have been a much better off perpetrator, someone with the income to afford transport, as well as a bolt-hole/dismemberment site.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:03 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,445
Default

Differences between Jackson and Kelly.

Jackson was dismembered, Kelly wasn't.

Jackson was decapitated, Kelly wasn't.

Kelly was killed in situ, Jackson wasn't.

Jackson's body parts were scattered over a wide area. Kelly's weren't scattered at all.

Jackson's body parts were bundled up into parcels. Kelly's weren't.

Jackson had two long vertical strips of skin removed from the abdominal wall, which were then parcelled up with other body parts. Kelly didn't.

Kelly was killed in a frenzy, by a perpetrator exhibiting no skill whatsoever. Jackson wasn't: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...onro&f=fals e

Jackson's heart was missing. In respect of Kelly this is a contentious point.

Jackson was pregnant,and the foetus was missing, suggesting this was a main focal point for Torso, which may partially explain the abdominal wall injuries: see, for example, Debra's Gray's Anatomy theory. Kelly wasn't..

Last edited by John G : 12-06-2018 at 11:07 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:06 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,445
Default

Were JtR murders as "theatrical as Torso's, as you suggest? In my ipioon, yes, but in a fundamentally different way.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:34 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post

In fact, are there any examples of an offender who has alternated between dismemberment and any other kind of violent murder?
Let's begin there: Ted Bundy occasionally dismembered. The Mad Butcher of Kingsbury Run did. Tsutomo Miyazaki did. There are quite probably more or even many more, but I don't want to spend any more time looking for them.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:53 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,551
Default

John G:

However, things are far more complicated than that. For instance, the Torso Perpetrator was very consistent in his ritualistic behaviour, and these rituals differed substantially from what we observe in the C5 murders.

So which are his rituals, John? Mind you, its good that you have finally dumped the idea that these were all practical dismemberments!

Thus, the Torso perpetrator decapitated his victims, JtR didn't. This may have been ritualistic, or practical, I.e. to prevent identification. In any event, this "signature" is absent in all of the C5 cases, even though in Kelly's case at least, he presumably had more than enough time. This suggests to me that "JtR" lacked either the skill or the inclination to perform such an act.

If the torso killer needed to dismember to dump, then that is the whole explanation, is it not? Why on earth would the Ripper decapitate, if it was not something he felt compelled to do for reasons of urge or ritual? But this has been said a thousand times! Why is it not enough?

The Torso victims were all stored: in the case of the Whitehall victim for up to 8 weeks, and Jackson for several days: she was last seen on the 31st May, but her remains were not discovered until 4th June. This ritual clearly meant something to the Torso perpetrator, considering the risk he must have been taking in not disposing of the remains straight away but clearly was not a consideration for JtR.

No, not all torso victims were stored. The 1873 victim was not. And you must realize that if the killer LIKED his bodies and/or body parts, then the Ripper COULD NOT store his victims, whereas the torso killer could. Very uncomplicated, therefore. A problem only arises if we conclude that there was an actual urge to stor bodies that could not be quenched, in which case the Ripper would have needed to carry his victims into some storage facility and leave them there. Does that sound likely to you? If he could store, he would store sometimes, but when he couldn't, he didn't. How about that?

The Torso perpetrator scattered body parts all over London, like "pieces of a puzzle". JtR didn't, even though he had the perfect opportunity with Kelly, considering the number of body parts removed.

You mean if he had brought a sack along to carry her in? To the Thames, presumably?
The torso murders involve some sort of transport means. No such means were employed in the Ripper murders. Again a problem only arises when we believe that the killer felt an unquenchable urge to transport bodies before dumping them. Did he?
How about floating the parts of the torso victims got press coverage and leaving a dead prostitute with her innards spread all around her ALSO reached that goal. Win-win, eh?

The Torso perpetrator either abducted his victims, and took them to his dismemberment site, or inveigled them. JtR didn't.

So we need to accept that a killer who can and will kill in a secluded location can also kill out in the streets. ehhh, let's see.... okey, accepted!
Is it to be expected, though? No, it is not. Then why think it happened? Because the similarities go a long way to prove it beyond reasonable doubt.

The Torso perpetrator dismembered all of his victims. JtR dismembered none of his, even though Kelly afforded him the perfect opportunity.

It is only if we think dismemberment was - again - an unquenchable need for the killer that this becomes of interest. Otherwise it remains that when you kill at home, you dismember, when you kill away from home, you don't have to.

Geographical considerations. JtR operated within a remarkably small area, I.e. Whitechapel/Spitalfields. For instance, from Flower and Dean Street, all of the murder sites are within a range of 0.6 miles, with the exception of Mitre Square, which was 1.1 miles away. In contrast, Torso operated all over London: I have already referred to the fact that Jackson's remains were scattered over a wide area, and Rainham is 27 miles from Whitechapel.

The victims can have been procured in the same small area nevertheless. And RAINHAM, John? Do you think the victim was slain in RAINHAM...? The part down there had of course floated there! Why bring up the distance to Rainham in this context? It is not a sound thing to do. We need to be reasonable, John!

What can we deduce from this? It is submitted that JtR lacked transport, or/and was psychologically unwilling to expand his range. It also suggests to me that JtR was a poor man-like the bulk of Whitechapel residents-who simply couldn't afford the extravagance of, say, a horse and cart, let alone stabling costs, feeding of animal, vet fees etc.

We cannot deduce that the Ripper lacked transport, no. He may have owned thirty carriages and an omnibus for all we know. All we can say is that he di9d not USE transport, but that is another thing altogether. The torso killer may not have used transport when picking up his victims, we only know that he did so when dumping the bodies. And as we - hopefully - have agreed by now: When you kill at home...

In contrast, Torso must have been a much better off perpetrator, someone with the income to afford transport, as well as a bolt-hole/dismemberment site.

No, he must not have been more affluent at all. The price of Wales has been suggested as the Ripper, and the reason that none of us believe in him as the perp is NOT that he was too rich.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:58 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Differences between Jackson and Kelly.

Jackson was dismembered, Kelly wasn't.

Jackson was decapitated, Kelly wasn't.

Kelly was killed in situ, Jackson wasn't.

Jackson's body parts were scattered over a wide area. Kelly's weren't scattered at all.

Jackson's body parts were bundled up into parcels. Kelly's weren't.

Jackson had two long vertical strips of skin removed from the abdominal wall, which were then parcelled up with other body parts. Kelly didn't.

Kelly was killed in a frenzy, by a perpetrator exhibiting no skill whatsoever. Jackson wasn't: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...onro&f=fals e

Jackson's heart was missing. In respect of Kelly this is a contentious point.

Jackson was pregnant,and the foetus was missing, suggesting this was a main focal point for Torso, which may partially explain the abdominal wall injuries: see, for example, Debra's Gray's Anatomy theory. Kelly wasn't..
Similarities:

Uterus taken away. Very, very unusual.

Heart taken away. Very, very unusual.

Cut from sternum to groin. Very unusual.

Abdominal wall removed in flaps. Almost unheard of.

Cut by knife. Common.

Extreme overkill. Rare.

Prostitutes, both of them. Common.

Londoners, both of them.

Killed within a period of eight months.

Both young women.

This cannot be explained away, ´m afraid, and it takes precedence over the dissimilarities, hands down. Any police force who did not work from the notion of a single killer when damage like this is involved would be beyond irreparably stupid.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:00 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Were JtR murders as "theatrical as Torso's, as you suggest? In my ipioon, yes, but in a fundamentally different way.
It is a question of displaying the handiwork of a killer in both series. It is about producing murders that evoke maximum press interest and public outrage in both series, whether consciously or not. Most killers have no such interests at all, and so this is yet another striking similarity of many.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:36 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,458
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Jackson's heart was missing.
And both her lungs in their entirety, let's not forget.

Good posts, John.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:41 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,074
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Unfortunately didn't think my last post was hostile! It certainly wasn't intended to be, although as we take diametrically opposed views there is bound to be a large degree of disagreement.

Firstly, an overview. Serial killers can sometimes elaborate or evolve their ritualistic behaviour. For instance, Schlesinger refers to an offender who began with post mortem mutilation and progressed to dismemberment: http://jaapl.org/content/38/2/239.long However, I'm not aware of any cases where a serial killer as alternated between dismemberment and JtR style street killing. In fact, are there any examples of an offender who has alternated between dismemberment and any other kind of violent murder?

However, things are far more complicated than that. For instance, the Torso Perpetrator was very consistent in his ritualistic behaviour, and these rituals differed substantially from what we observe in the C5 murders.

Thus, the Torso perpetrator decapitated his victims, JtR didn't. This may have been ritualistic, or practical, I.e. to prevent identification. In any event, this "signature" is absent in all of the C5 cases, even though in Kelly's case at least, he presumably had more than enough time. This suggests to me that "JtR" lacked either the skill or the inclination to perform such an act.

The Torso victims were all stored: in the case of the Whitehall victim for up to 8 weeks, and Jackson for several days: she was last seen on the 31st May, but her remains were not discovered until 4th June. This ritual clearly meant something to the Torso perpetrator, considering the risk he must have been taking in not disposing of the remains straight away but clearly was not a consideration for JtR.

The Torso perpetrator scattered body parts all over London, like "pieces of a puzzle". JtR didn't, even though he had the perfect opportunity with Kelly, considering the number of body parts removed.

The Torso perpetrator either abducted his victims, and took them to his dismemberment site, or inveigled them. JtR didn't.

The Torso perpetrator dismembered all of his victims. JtR dismembered none of his, even though Kelly afforded him the perfect opportunity.

Geographical considerations. JtR operated within a remarkably small area, I.e. Whitechapel/Spitalfields. For instance, from Flower and Dean Street, all of the murder sites are within a range of 0.6 miles, with the exception of Mitre Square, which was 1.1 miles away. In contrast, Torso operated all over London: I have already referred to the fact that Jackson's remains were scattered over a wide area, and Rainham is 27 miles from Whitechapel.

What can we deduce from this? It is submitted that JtR lacked transport, or/and was psychologically unwilling to expand his range. It also suggests to me that JtR was a poor man-like the bulk of Whitechapel residents-who simply couldn't afford the extravagance of, say, a horse and cart, let alone stabling costs, feeding of animal, vet fees etc.

In contrast, Torso must have been a much better off perpetrator, someone with the income to afford transport, as well as a bolt-hole/dismemberment site.
Hi John
this is a good post- I disagree with the basic premise, but good points nonetheless.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:44 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,074
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Similarities:

Uterus taken away. Very, very unusual.

Heart taken away. Very, very unusual.

Cut from sternum to groin. Very unusual.

Abdominal wall removed in flaps. Almost unheard of.

Cut by knife. Common.

Extreme overkill. Rare.

Prostitutes, both of them. Common.

Londoners, both of them.

Killed within a period of eight months.

Both young women.

This cannot be explained away, ´m afraid, and it takes precedence over the dissimilarities, hands down. Any police force who did not work from the notion of a single killer when damage like this is involved would be beyond irreparably stupid.
aaaaaand this is why I favor they were the same man. there are differences of course, as highlighted by JohnGs good post-but the similarities are more, and more striking-more RARE similarities than differences IMHO.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.