Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Batman 4 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Batman 6 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - by Abby Normal 6 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - by Abby Normal 7 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - by Wickerman 7 hours ago.
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - by Trevor Marriott 7 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection. - (48 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (33 posts)
Torso Killings: JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful. - (17 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - (3 posts)
General Discussion: My profile of the ripper - (1 posts)
General Discussion: A broken down masher - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #621  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:21 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Coroner Wynne E. Baxter pointed out that Llewellyn's claim is likely wrong. Bond in his meta-review also corrected him.

So in your model, you need JtR to slice Nichols neck after the mutilations and then reverse that for the others?



So not only do you need examples of serial killers who have decided to hang around a victim waiting for a witness to see them, but you also need a serial killer who reverses his MO and signature, turning his signature into his MO and his MO into his signature!



Diemschitz saw it was a woman, just like Lechmere, when he bent down to see and struck a match.



Well, your MO signature swapping serial killer who hangs about for witnesses to come by is the stuff of total fantasy obviously. It doesn't exist in reality. It's a chimera of your folktales about Lechmere combined with a comedy routine out of Monty Python and a dyslexic serial killer who gets his behaviours muddled up.

"Oh was it neck or stomach I did first, again?" - JtR musing to himself.
Yes, why would we not take a medically ignorant coronerīs word over an experienced doctorīs?

Good thinking there, Batman!

And you add that Diemschitz did see that it was a woman - when he struck a match.

You ARE on a roll.

I write the cheap insults up to a bitterness on your behalf on account of having been put on display, pants down. Some make that choice instead of the wiser option: "Oh, right, so I was wrong".

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-18-2018 at 01:23 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #622  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:26 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Itīs illuminating, though, that nobody is suggesting REAL alternative suspects - to try and find some competition for Lechmere, we need to dig into conjecture ground and make people up
For one, I find Jacob Levy to be a more compelling suspect.
  • Lived in the epicenter of the murders
  • Had a traumatic childhood: witnessed his eldest brother's suicide
  • Had the required butchery skills for the murders (a disputed point but one that is still in Jacob's favour)
  • Was related to Joseph Levy, a witness who purportedly had something to hide
  • Had a brother living in Goulston Street
  • Wife said he wandered the streets at night and had compulsions of a violent nature
  • Life deteriorated around 1886, after he was arrested for theft and almost ruined the family business
  • Died of syphilis (wife was clean, so probably from a whore)

Ah, but Levy was never placed at one of the murder sites, so he cannot compare to the suspect par excellence that is Lechmere! Funnily enough, we don't need to place Levy there. Few serial killers are ever found at the murder scene, nor do they approach passers-by. It's enough to know that he lived in Whitechapel, had a traumatic childhood, butcher skills, violent thoughts, wandered the streets, and had known ties to a fishy witness and location of the graffito/rag.

Does it mean I think Levy WAS the ripper and not just one of several mad jews that have come under suspicion (Cohen, Hyams, Kosminski)? I'll leave that up to you to work out, but based on the above I find him to be a much more convincing suspect than the carman.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #623  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:38 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
For one, I find Jacob Levy to be a more compelling suspect.
  • Lived in the epicenter of the murders
  • Had a traumatic childhood: witnessed his eldest brother's suicide
  • Had the required butchery skills for the murders (a disputed point but one that is still in Jacob's favour)
  • Was related to Joseph Levy, a witness who purportedly had something to hide
  • Had a brother living in Goulston Street
  • Wife said he wandered the streets at night and had compulsions of a violent nature
  • Life deteriorated around 1886, after he was arrested for theft and almost ruined the family business
  • Died of syphilis (wife was clean, so probably from a whore)

Ah, but Levy was never placed at one of the murder sites, so he cannot compare to the suspect par excellence that is Lechmere! Funnily enough, we don't need to place Levy there. Few serial killers are ever found at the murder scene, nor do they approach passers-by. It's enough to know that he lived in Whitechapel, had a traumatic childhood, butcher skills, violent thoughts, wandered the streets, and had known ties to a fishy witness and location of the graffito/rag.

Does it mean I think Levy WAS the ripper and not just one of several mad jews that have come under suspicion (Cohen, Hyams, Kosminski)? I'll leave that up to you to work out, but based on the above I find him to be a much more convincing suspect than the carman.
Hi harry
I think levy could be a compelling suspect but theres nothing that ties him to the case-and i dont think its been conclusively shown that he was related to one of the mitre square witnesses.

Hes really just one of a long list of crazy jew profile types started with andersons theory , through Fido and carried on through today. We dont even know where he was during the murder series.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #624  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:42 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
For one, I find Jacob Levy to be a more compelling suspect.
  • Lived in the epicenter of the murders
  • Had a traumatic childhood: witnessed his eldest brother's suicide
  • Had the required butchery skills for the murders (a disputed point but one that is still in Jacob's favour)
  • Was related to Joseph Levy, a witness who purportedly had something to hide
  • Had a brother living in Goulston Street
  • Wife said he wandered the streets at night and had compulsions of a violent nature
  • Life deteriorated around 1886, after he was arrested for theft and almost ruined the family business
  • Died of syphilis (wife was clean, so probably from a whore)

Ah, but Levy was never placed at one of the murder sites, so he cannot compare to the suspect par excellence that is Lechmere! Funnily enough, we don't need to place Levy there. Few serial killers are ever found at the murder scene, nor do they approach passers-by. It's enough to know that he lived in Whitechapel, had a traumatic childhood, butcher skills, violent thoughts, wandered the streets, and had known ties to a fishy witness and location of the graffito/rag.

Does it mean I think Levy WAS the ripper and not just one of several mad jews that have come under suspicion (Cohen, Hyams, Kosminski)? I'll leave that up to you to work out, but based on the above I find him to be a much more convincing suspect than the carman.
Sorry. There is not a iot of connection to the sites or the victims - just as you wisely point out yourself.

Less wisely, you claim that such trivialities are of much less interest than how Levy appeals to you and your idea about what the killer must have been like.

Is Levy somebody who there is a prima faciae case against? Ho-hum...?

Is he, as Griffiths put it about Lechmere, "completely relevant"? No. Is he relevant at all? No. Is he irrelevant? Yes, until any small smidgeon of evidence appears that points to him having been in place.

Sorry, but that is how it works. It is not as if being mad or bad takes you an inch closer to the sites. There is not a thing connecting Levy to the Ripper murders. Not one. If the police had gotten it into their heads that he was a good suspect - and they may well have, since the combination weird and foreign appealed a whole lot to them for no good reason at all - they would have been faced with the task of putting him on or near the spots before any sort of case could be built.

Maybe they could have at that remove in time. But we canīt do that today, and so we have nothing on him in terms of caserelated evidence. Myself, I note that he was 16 in 1873, and totally unlikely to have killed the torso victim who died then. And since I think that the killer moved on to kill Kelly fifteen years later, he is ruled out on that score, as far as Iīm concerned. Instead of trying to squeeze him into the Ripper slippers on account of having not adjusted to the rule of normality, I rule him out on account of being too young to have killed in 1873.
But thatīs just me.

I enjoy reading about Levy, and he fascinates me. But finding a killer is a practical matter, not an ideological one.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-18-2018 at 01:46 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #625  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:46 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi harry
I think levy could be a compelling suspect but theres nothing that ties him to the case-
What needs to "tie him" to the case? How many serial killers are witnesses? How many serial killers are on modern police radar, let alone in the 19th century?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
and i dont think its been conclusively shown that he was related to one of the mitre square witnesses.
I'm pretty sure Tracy Ianson's research proved they were related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
We dont even know where he was during the murder series.
Middlesex Street.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #626  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:48 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post

Few serial killers are ever found at the murder scene...
But 100 per cent of them is actually there.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #627  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:48 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Yes, why would we not take a medically ignorant coronerīs word over an experienced doctorīs?
You ignore that Baxter is considering more than one doctor's opinion on the murders and has correctly LINKED them, and then sided with the opinion that Nichols had actually had her throat cut first like Chapman.

Baxter was correct.

You also ignore Bond, a doctor who was given a meta-analysis, agreed with Baxter.

Instead, you want Cross to now be confused over his MO and signature. You bend reality to have Cross slicing a throat that isn't bleeding out when he calls a witness over to see him practically at it.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #628  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:50 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,348
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Sorry. There is not a iot of connection to the sites or the victims - just as you wisely point out yourself.

Less wisely, you claim that such trivialities are of much less interest than how Levy appeals to you and your idea about what the killer must have been like.

Is Levy somebody who there is a prima faciae case against? Ho-hum...?

Is he, as Griffiths put it about Lechmere, "completely relevant"? No. Is he relevant at all? No. Is he irrelevant? Yes, until any small smidgeon of evidence appears that points to him having been in place.

Sorry, but that is how it works. It is not as if being mad or bad takes you an inch closer to the sites. There is not a thing connecting Levy to the Ripper murders. Not one. If the police had gotten it into their heads that he was a good suspect - and they may well have, since the combination weird and foreign appealed a whole lot to them for no good reason at all - they would have been faced with the task of putting him on or near the spots before any sort of case could be built.

Maybe they could have at that remove in time. But we canīt do that today, and so we have nothing on him in terms of caserelated evidence. Myself, I note that he was 16 in 1873, and totally unlikely to have killed the torso victim who died then. And since I think that the killer moved on to kill Kelly fifteen years later, he is ruled out on that score, as far as Iīm concerned. Instead of trying to squeeze him into the Ripper slippers on account of having not adjusted to the rule of normality, I rule him out on account of being too young to have killed in 1873.
But thatīs just me.

I enjoy reading about Levy, and he fascinates me. But finding a killer is a practical matter, not an ideological one.
You can keep pulling your expert out of the box, if you like. Frankly, I am not impressed. It's remarkable how documentarians and writers never fail to discover experts who support their theory. We don't even know if Mr Griffiths was briefed on the full facts of the case.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #629  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:50 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
What needs to "tie him" to the case?
The police and the judicial system need to tie him to the case. They must. It is the most vital of all parameters, not if you have shouted "death to fallen women" in the street.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #630  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:53 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 18,498
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
You can keep pulling your expert out of the box, if you like. Frankly, I am not impressed. It's remarkable how documentarians and writers never fail to discover experts who support their theory. We don't even know if Mr Griffiths was briefed on the full facts of the case.
And THAT is how long it took before Harry had to resort to the "Griffiths was probably kept in the dark" card!

Thankīs Harry! End of the road, finally. All other options emptied out and found insufficient.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.