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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #611  
Old 11-18-2018, 10:27 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: Again, the suggestion isn't that "anybody can be a suspect", but that, among the many thousands of men who lived in or close to the Ripper "hot zone", there simply MUST have been scores of candidates who would make much, much better suspects than Charles Cross.

Surely you mean "much, much, much, much, MUCH better candidates than Charles Cross"?
And let me correct you - the suggestion WAS that anybody can be a suspect; that was precisely what Harry D suggested.
It is really hard to be a better suspect than Lechmere. You have to be as present or more present than him at a murder site where the victim is freshly killed, you have to tamper with the name issue and you have to disagree with the police in a manner that provides you a chance to pass them by. Plus you have to fit the geography to a tee.
These are no small matters.
You probably think that any man known to have a violent history and living in the area is automatically a better suspect, but let me assure you that no such thing applies. The FACTUAL connection to the crimes is what produces the initial amount of possible perpetrators, not having a violent history. Violent people are second rate people, to whom the police will turn only if they cannot find their man among those with a factual connection.
We canīt even say that on the surface of things, a violent man is more likely to be the perp than Lechmere, since we simply do not know whether HE was a violent man. For all we know, he could have been a bomb on two legs, waiting to go off.

The issue we have is that, censuses (etc) apart, none but a tiny handful of these thousands of men ever got their names into print.

And so some will never be lifted onto the stage as better suspects - people whose existence we cannot verify cannot be suggested as suspects. Only people of flesh and blood can compete! Saying "I have a feeling that there must have been a very vicious man with a great hatred for prostitutes living down Brick Lane way" is not producing a suspect, itīs producing conjecture.

Those we cannot bring on stage with a proven existence, cannot compete for the title. No matter how dangerous and terrible we assure ourselves they would have been.

Itīs illuminating, though, that nobody is suggesting REAL alternative suspects - to try and find some competition for Lechmere, we need to dig into conjecture ground and make people up.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-18-2018 at 10:31 AM.
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  #612  
Old 11-18-2018, 10:59 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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But he was not into brisk walks - it took him twice the time it should have to reach Bucks Row.

Maybe he stopped to lace up his shoes.
Does this mean that the killer would have twice as long to make his getaway after Lech turned into Bucks Row?

Last edited by Darryl Kenyon : 11-18-2018 at 11:02 AM.
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  #613  
Old 11-18-2018, 11:41 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Does this mean that the killer would have twice as long to make his getaway after Lech turned into Bucks Row?
Lechmereīs hearing will not have gone done to half, so that made up killer would have the same amount of time to escape unheard - none. Of course, if Lechmere was the killer, then there was no Mr P Hantom up at the body at all, but IF there had been, Lechmere said that he must have heard him.

So what it effectively means is that Mr P Hantom must have legged it before Lechmere came into the street, and accordingly, the blood should have started flowing very early on. And so it ought not have bled as Neil saw the body, and less so when Mizen did. Everything points to Lechmere being the cutter, in other words.
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  #614  
Old 11-18-2018, 11:55 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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if Lechmere was the killer, then there was no Mr P Hantom up at the body at all, but IF there had been, Lechmere said that he must have heard him.
So in effect, Lech is incriminating himself with that statement hmmm
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  #615  
Old 11-18-2018, 11:56 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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So what it effectively means is that Mr P Hantom must have legged it before Lechmere came into the street, and accordingly, the blood should have started flowing very early on. And so it ought not have bled as Neil saw the body, and less so when Mizen did. Everything points to Lechmere being the cutter, in other words.
An open carotid artery will bleed out into a pool in seconds. They all would have seen it under experimental conditions, which this isn't, because it was dark.

Case in hand, the very fact that Stride was found in the darkness under similar conditions by Louis Diemschutz. He didn't see any blood. According to your model, that makes Louis Diemschutz a suspect and everything points to Louis Diemschutz being the cutter, in other words.
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  #616  
Old 11-18-2018, 12:16 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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So in effect, Lech is incriminating himself with that statement hmmm
He is in all probability taking what he would have considered the safe way out by not saying anything at all about any Mr P Hantom. Didnīt see, didnīt hear, didnīt smell.
... missing out on the importance of the blood evidence.
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  #617  
Old 11-18-2018, 12:22 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Batman: An open carotid artery will bleed out into a pool in seconds. They all would have seen it under experimental conditions, which this isn't, because it was dark.

But the neck was not cut first, according to Llewellyn. So the main bleeding happened in the abdomen, taking the pressure down and killing Nichols. Then the neck was cut, and only gravity guided the blood out of the neck with no underlying pressure. And no large pool was formed, only a small one, containing no more than two glasses of wine, as Llewellyn put it. And Neil said nothing about any blood running into the gutter - but Mizen did.

Connect the dots. Itīs seemingly easy.

Case in hand, the very fact that Stride was found in the darkness under similar conditions by Louis Diemschutz. He didn't see any blood. According to your model, that makes Louis Diemschutz a suspect and everything points to Louis Diemschutz being the cutter, in other words.

The two cases would have differed in terms of light. Diemschitz was not even sure what he was looking at, and prodded it with his whip. And he was a lot closer than Lechmere, who could tell he was looking at a woman from some three yards away or so.
I think you should leave it to me to decide what makes a suspect and what doesnīt. Itīs certainly about more than light. You seem to muddle things quite badly when trying your hand on it.
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  #618  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:07 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Connect the dots. Itīs seemingly easy.
Indeeed. The blood had all but run its course before Cross or Paul got to the body... and Llewellyn was unobservant, incompetent or both.
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  #619  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:09 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Batman: An open carotid artery will bleed out into a pool in seconds. They all would have seen it under experimental conditions, which this isn't, because it was dark.

But the neck was not cut first, according to Llewellyn. So the main bleeding happened in the abdomen, taking the pressure down and killing Nichols. Then the neck was cut, and only gravity guided the blood out of the neck with no underlying pressure. And no large pool was formed, only a small one, containing no more than two glasses of wine, as Llewellyn put it. And Neil said nothing about any blood running into the gutter - but Mizen did.
Coroner Wynne E. Baxter pointed out that Llewellyn's claim is likely wrong. Bond in his meta-review also corrected him.

So in your model, you need JtR to slice Nichols neck after the mutilations and then reverse that for the others?

Quote:
Connect the dots. Itīs seemingly easy.
So not only do you need examples of serial killers who have decided to hang around a victim waiting for a witness to see them, but you also need a serial killer who reverses his MO and signature, turning his signature into his MO and his MO into his signature!

Quote:
The two cases would have differed in terms of light. Diemschitz was not even sure what he was looking at, and prodded it with his whip. And he was a lot closer than Lechmere, who could tell he was looking at a woman from some three yards away or so.
Diemschitz saw it was a woman, just like Lechmere, when he bent down to see and struck a match.

Quote:
I think you should leave it to me to decide what makes a suspect and what doesnīt. Itīs certainly about more than light. You seem to muddle things quite badly when trying your hand on it.
Well, your MO signature swapping serial killer who hangs about for witnesses to come by is the stuff of total fantasy obviously. It doesn't exist in reality. It's a chimera of your folktales about Lechmere combined with a comedy routine out of Monty Python and a dyslexic serial killer who gets his behaviours muddled up.

"Oh was it neck or stomach I did first, again?" - JtR musing to himself.
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  #620  
Old 11-18-2018, 01:19 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Indeeed. The blood had all but run its course before Cross or Paul got to the body... and Llewellyn was unobservant, incompetent or both.
Or he was competent, as led on by his credentials.

But we canīt have competense and knowledge on his part, can we? Because that would lead straight to...

Canīt have that happening, can we?

Paul - saw no blood.

Neil - saw the pool.

Mizen - saw the pool and how the blood ran into the gutter.

Lechmere - killed Nichols.
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