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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #581  
Old 11-17-2018, 03:17 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Duplicate post

Last edited by MrBarnett : 11-17-2018 at 03:19 AM.
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  #582  
Old 11-17-2018, 03:17 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
The highlight is mine. No examples, before you believe it. Yet you are trying to sell us something you have no examples of. Namely a serial killer hanging around a victim waiting for a witness to appear so they can show it to them.



The argument was never that people won't do this. We know they do it. Netflix The Staircase pretty much solidifies it. What we asked for is an example of a serial killer hanging around a victim waiting for a witness to appear so they can show it to them.



Finding evidence to support a claim is what people do. However here you are clearly clashing again with your position of examples before you believe it.



Completely different. We know they do this. Even the Zodiac wrote letters taunting police. BTK reached out also. Netflix The Staircase. Again, we know all this stuff. It isn't the question we are asking.



They are extremely different things. Snooker tables and food stalls.



Special pleading as predicted. What's good for Chapman isn't good enough for Lechmere.



On my drawing board are several words for you to read "You can't have your cake and not eat it".
How tiresome. Every case deserves a pleading relating to it´s circumstances.

As I said before, almost all killers will run if they have the opportunity.

That is the generalized picture.

In Lechmere´s case, Griffiths said he would NEVER have run. So the specific circumstances provided a background that made Griffiths opt for a ten out of ten staying put suggestion.

And Chapman is a ninehundred and ninety nine out of a thousand "no" when it comes to the viability of an eviscerator turning poisoner.

That´s as special pleading as you will ever get, in both cases. But with different outcome.

If you feel hard done by, then by all means have a cleansing good cry. But don´t claim that I cannot defend my stance.

Discussion over. I´m off for today.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-17-2018 at 03:22 AM.
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  #583  
Old 11-17-2018, 03:37 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Your reply is self-refuting and contradictory.

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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
How tiresome. Every case deserves a pleading relating to it´s circumstances.
So here, because you can't show examples for Lechmere (despite demanding examples for Chapman in order to accept an argument) you claim all cases need special pleading.

Do you know what special pleading is?

It's a fallacy.

Quote:
As I said before, almost all killers will run if they have the opportunity.

That is the generalized picture.
Let's be clear why you know this. Examples of it happening is why you know this. That is the 'generalized picture'. Examples.

Quote:
In Lechmere´s case, Griffiths said he would NEVER have run. So the specific circumstances provided a background that made Griffiths opt for a ten out of ten staying put suggestion.
You are welcome to believe this but I would prefer to reference investigators who have actually caught serial killers.

Quote:
And Chapman is a ninehundred and ninety nine out of a thousand "no" when it comes to the viability of an eviscerator turning poisoner.
Yet here you go again, and but even apparently 'special pleading' for Chapman (you actually mean ignoring H.H.Holmes) means 99.9% not a viable suspect. It's simply bare-faced hypocrisy to present us a cake and not eat any yourself. If you reject any 'special pleading' around Chapman, then reject it for Lechmere also.

Quote:
That´s as special pleading as you will ever get, in both cases. But with different outcome.

If you feel hard done by, then by all means have a cleansing good cry. But don´t claim that I cannot defend my stance.

Discussion over. I´m off for today.
You can't defend a conflicting, hypocritical, double-standards cake at all. You are all over the place on this one.

If you are off then fine, but I am going to be discussing this with whoever brings it up or replies to it.
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  #584  
Old 11-17-2018, 04:03 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
The trigger for my post was that an uninformed poster wrote this:

However, we are supposed to believe that for the umpteenth time he passed that route to work, he decided to pickup a prozzie and murder her in cold blood.
Two years, two months... it doesn't really matter exactly how many times Lechmere made that trek. In all probability, his route to work coincided with the murder, as it did for numerous other witnesses, and didn't cause it. We have still to be presented with substantial evidence that implicates Lechmere. It's the usual half-truths and speculations that are bread and butter of suspect-based theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
As for your statement above, I doubt you could make a suspect out of anyone, but I bet JTR's back story is an interesting one. Lechmere has an interesting story, whether he was the ripper or not.
I'm sure there are many east end characters with interesting biographies that have gone untold simply because they weren't drawn into the ripper case.
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  #585  
Old 11-17-2018, 04:29 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Two years, two months... it doesn't really matter exactly how many times Lechmere made that trek. In all probability, his route to work coincided with the murder, as it did for numerous other witnesses, and didn't cause it. We have still to be presented with substantial evidence that implicates Lechmere. It's the usual half-truths and speculations that are bread and butter of suspect-based theory.



I'm sure there are many east end characters with interesting biographies that have gone untold simply because they weren't drawn into the ripper case.
So why did you choose to emphasise that he had used the route umpteen times? I think that qualifies as a half-truth. Have I posted any half-truths?

Surely speculation is a valid element of the investigative process. Without it, Ripperology wouldn't exist.

According to you, 'anyone' could be turned into a suspect. Perhaps you should take up Fish's challenge.

This might be useful:


"I put these lists together some time ago. They are derived from the electoral registers, so they obviously aren't a complete record of all the residents of George Yard Buildings, but they may be of interest.


George Yard Buildings
Electoral Registers

1888

36, Richard Brown
1, John Bryan
19, John Casey
27, William Chapman
13, William Garbutt
24, Joseph Gladman
33, Robert Hall
18, Thomas Hark
28, John Harris
5, George Harrison
45, John Hayes
14, Francis Hewitt
9, Francis Fisher Hewitt
29, Francis Hewitt jun
29, George Howell
22, Charles Humphries
15, John Johnson
32, Daniel Killinbeck
42, William Lacey
47, Patrick McNeil
46, Thomas Madden
24, Thomas Melville
40, John Reeves
16, Henry Ritson
25, James Sheelan
41, William Shore
43, William Sillitoe
25, James Speelan
2, William Steele
21, Henry Tempest
33, Richard Thall
7, William Winstan
31, William Winter


1889

29, John Baker
4, George Barber
36, Richard Brown
19, John Casey
12, Henry Cooper
35, George Crow
33, Robert Hall
6, Francis Hewitt
9, Francis Hewitt
29, Frank Hewitt Jnr
28, Thomas Hughes
21, William Humphreys
14, George Humphreys
26, Richard Kenrich
32, David Killinbeck
48, William Lacey
46, Thomas Madden
47 & 48, Joseph Marney
24, Matthew Melville
29, John Mitten
37, John Reeves
27, Edward Rice
16, Henry Ritson
2, William Steele
1, Walter Tempest
45, John Watkins
7, William Winstan
31, William Winter

E & O E "
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  #586  
Old 11-17-2018, 04:57 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
So why did you choose to emphasise that he had used the route umpteen times? I think that qualifies as a half-truth. Have I posted any half-truths?
"Umpteen" is an indefinite number. I didn't know how many times Lechmere took that route but it had to be regularly. It wasn't his first day, week or month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Surely speculation is a valid element of the investigative process. Without it, Ripperology wouldn't exist.
Speculation can be easily manipulated into "fact". That's the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
According to you, 'anyone' could be turned into a suspect. Perhaps you should take up Fish's challenge.
It's been done already, MrB:

https://www.casebook.org/suspects
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  #587  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:41 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
"Umpteen" is an indefinite number. I didn't know how many times Lechmere took that route but it had to be regularly. It wasn't his first day, week or month.



Speculation can be easily manipulated into "fact". That's the problem.



It's been done already, MrB:

https://www.casebook.org/suspects
If we include Tabram in the tally, then it isn't even two months and it's quite conceivable that it took him a while to get his bearings and perfect his route.

In your dictionary, is umpteen defined as any indefinite number, from 1 to infinity? That's not how I use it or have seen it used by others. I've always thought it meant an extremely large indefinite number. In this case, you applied it to a number between 1 and 45 (approx).

Yes, there have been numerous suspects put forward, but they're a drop in the ocean compared to the number of adult males who would have had easy access to the East End in 1888. You claim that any of them could be made into a suspect, and presumably by that you mean one who would stand comparison with Lechmere.

Why not have a go, then? Stick a pin in the GYB list or Gareth's list of infirmary loonies and turn him into JTR. Or continue with Crow.

I'm not saying it couldn't be done. If you pick the right person, it might be an interesting exercise. I'd be more than happy to help, and perhaps contrary to appeances I'm not a confirmed Lechmerian, so I would do my utmost to support your chosen suspect's candidacy.

Last edited by MrBarnett : 11-17-2018 at 06:03 AM.
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  #588  
Old 11-17-2018, 07:53 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
So why did you choose to emphasise that he had used the route umpteen times? I think that qualifies as a half-truth. Have I posted any half-truths?

Surely speculation is a valid element of the investigative process. Without it, Ripperology wouldn't exist.

According to you, 'anyone' could be turned into a suspect. Perhaps you should take up Fish's challenge.

This might be useful:


"I put these lists together some time ago. They are derived from the electoral registers, so they obviously aren't a complete record of all the residents of George Yard Buildings, but they may be of interest.


George Yard Buildings
Electoral Registers

1888

36, Richard Brown
1, John Bryan
19, John Casey
27, William Chapman
13, William Garbutt
24, Joseph Gladman
33, Robert Hall
18, Thomas Hark
28, John Harris
5, George Harrison
45, John Hayes
14, Francis Hewitt
9, Francis Fisher Hewitt
29, Francis Hewitt jun
29, George Howell
22, Charles Humphries
15, John Johnson
32, Daniel Killinbeck
42, William Lacey
47, Patrick McNeil
46, Thomas Madden
24, Thomas Melville
40, John Reeves
16, Henry Ritson
25, James Sheelan
41, William Shore
43, William Sillitoe
25, James Speelan
2, William Steele
21, Henry Tempest
33, Richard Thall
7, William Winstan
31, William Winter


1889

29, John Baker
4, George Barber
36, Richard Brown
19, John Casey
12, Henry Cooper
35, George Crow
33, Robert Hall
6, Francis Hewitt
9, Francis Hewitt
29, Frank Hewitt Jnr
28, Thomas Hughes
21, William Humphreys
14, George Humphreys
26, Richard Kenrich
32, David Killinbeck
48, William Lacey
46, Thomas Madden
47 & 48, Joseph Marney
24, Matthew Melville
29, John Mitten
37, John Reeves
27, Edward Rice
16, Henry Ritson
2, William Steele
1, Walter Tempest
45, John Watkins
7, William Winstan
31, William Winter

E & O E "
harry if I were you id start with crow. lol
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  #589  
Old 11-17-2018, 08:42 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
If we include Tabram in the tally, then it isn't even two months and it's quite conceivable that it took him a while to get his bearings and perfect his route.
...or perhaps a likelier answer is that the murder overlapped with the route of a random carman. Sorry, two random carmen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
In your dictionary, is umpteen defined as any indefinite number, from 1 to infinity? That's not how I use it or have seen it used by others. I've always thought it meant an extremely large indefinite number. In this case, you applied it to a number between 1 and 45 (approx).
Is pettifogging the usual practice for Lechmere apologia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Yes, there have been numerous suspects put forward, but they're a drop in the ocean compared to the number of adult males who would have had easy access to the East End in 1888. You claim that any of them could be made into a suspect, and presumably by that you mean one who would stand comparison with Lechmere.
I'm willing to bet any number of those fellas had troubled upbringings, absent parents, diagnosed/undiagnosed mental problems, etc. We know this already from the small pool of suspects/witnesses etc. available to us.
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  #590  
Old 11-17-2018, 09:16 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
...or perhaps a likelier answer is that the murder overlapped with the route of a random carman. Sorry, two random carmen.



Is pettifogging the usual practice for Lechmere apologia?



I'm willing to bet any number of those fellas had troubled upbringings, absent parents, diagnosed/undiagnosed mental problems, etc. We know this already from the small pool of suspects/witnesses etc. available to us.
Pettifogging? You chose to use a word that totally misrepresented the known facts, presumably in order to bolster your argument - the very thing you accuse theorists of doing. More ‘pot-calling-kettle-black-challenging’ than ‘pettifogging’ I’d say. And I’m neither a Lechmere apologist nor a Lechmere denier.

I’m sensing you’re not going to take up the challenge.

At first glance Crow looks promising. Living in GYB in 1888; claiming to have passed a body on the landing; a connection to St George’s; an occupation that may have given him and intimate knowledge of the East End streets...
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