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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #461  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:33 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
A complete lack of people on the street ?

The Coroner: I did not ask you whether you like them; I ask you whether there were any about that night.
Witness Tomkins: I did not see any.
The Coroner: Not in Whitechapel-road?
Witness: Oh, yes, there, of all sorts and sizes; its a rough neighbourhood, I can tell you



The Coroner: Whitechapel-road is busy in the early morning, I believe. Could anybody have escaped that way?
Witness PC Neil : Oh yes, sir. I saw a number of women in the main road going home. At that time any one could have got away.




PC Thain:There were one or two working men going down Brady-street shortly before I was called by Neale.
On the streets Lechmere, Paul and Neil witnessed about, all of them smaller streets. We have already agreed, all of us, that the larger streets probably had people on them, but that does not nullify the testimony of these three witnesses. And as I said, all we can do is to establish that these streets seemed deserted, whereas we cannot say that they all were. There is place for Mr P Hantom, I have stressed that more than once now. What I point to is the more or less general lack of people in the back streets.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-15-2018 at 04:38 AM.
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  #462  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:36 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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I don`t know, I think that was the time the coroner was referring to.





Recorded in Brady Street just before he was called by Neil
The coroner knew that the slaughtermen were in the yard when Nichols was killed. He was probing Tomkins about whether there were any women about ‘that night’.
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  #463  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:37 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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So, does he know for sure how much Paul saw as he approached? Doesn't he wonder whether silencing Paul is a safer prospect than running with him to find a copper with him? Silent streets...?
It depends. If heard Paul from quite far away, then he can be more or less certain that he saw nothing.

If Paul was closer, he cannot be certain.

If I was Lechmere, do you know what I would have done? I would have joined up with Paul, walked in company with him, and I would have found out as best as I could.
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  #464  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:39 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
What I point to is the more or less general lack of people in the back streets.

Yes, agreed but at odds with what you had posted earlier, hence my pointing out the inquest testimonies to the contrary
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  #465  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:42 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Yes, agreed but at odds with what you had posted earlier, hence my pointing out the inquest testimonies to the contrary
One of them did no such thing.

Ah, I see you’ve added another. At what time did Neil go home I wonder?

Last edited by MrBarnett : 11-15-2018 at 04:45 AM.
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  #466  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:54 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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I said ‘if’. How long do you imagine it would have taken Paul to cover the 40 yards between him and the body? And having seen or heard someone haring off from the spot to have immediately understood there was foul play at hand and started yelling at the top of his lungs?

By no stretch of the imagination is Buck’s Row a long road. And forty yards is forty yards in any road.
I don't think you said 'if' looking back, but if that is what you meant fine, but I don't understand your reply because in my post you are responding to, I have absolutely laid all this out for you.

Buck's row is a long road.

https://wiki.casebook.org/images/thu...px-Bucks38.jpg

Have a look at the background distance all the way up to the gates where Nichols was found. It was dark. Some lamps around.

Somebody turning onto Buck's row is even further away than the furthest person you can see in the background of that photo and even they are far away from the man who has just walked by the gates where Nichols was found.

It is simply inexplicable that the murderer needed to stay there with someone coming in the distance.
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  #467  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:58 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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One of them did no such thing.
The Coroner knew there were people in the Road at that time, and he knew Tomkins knew. The coroner didn`t know yet that Tomkins had been the pub on the road, yet he still checked Tomkins about people being in the road.


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Ah, I see you’ve added another. At what time did Neil go home I wonder?
No, it was posted at the same time.

I don`t know when Neil went home. Why do you ask ?
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  #468  
Old 11-15-2018, 05:20 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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The Coroner knew there were people in the Road at that time, and he knew Tomkins knew. The coroner didn`t know yet that Tomkins had been the pub on the road, yet he still checked Tomkins about people being in the road.




No, it was posted at the same time.

I don`t know when Neil went home. Why do you ask ?
How would Tomkins have known conditions in the WR at 3.30 if his shift was from 8 - 4 with a short break at 12.30? You’re right, at the point he asked the question, specifically about woman being about after 2.00, he didn’t know about Tomkins break time.

Sorry, I must have missed the second point when I first read your post.

When Neil talks about seeing women in WR ‘going home’ was it the women who were ‘going home’ or himself at the end of his shift?
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  #469  
Old 11-15-2018, 05:31 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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How would Tomkins have known conditions in the WR at 3.30 if his shift was from 8 - 4 with a short break at 12.30?
Because Tomkins would have been aware that the WR would still be populated at that time.

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Sorry, I must have missed the second point when I first read your post.
No probs :-)

Quote:
When Neil talks about seeing women in WR ‘going home’ was it the women who were ‘going home’ or himself at the end of his shift?
I assumed at first read through that it was the women who were going home.
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  #470  
Old 11-15-2018, 05:36 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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I don't think you said 'if' looking back, but if that is what you meant fine, but I don't understand your reply because in my post you are responding to, I have absolutely laid all this out for you.

Buck's row is a long road.

https://wiki.casebook.org/images/thu...px-Bucks38.jpg

Have a look at the background distance all the way up to the gates where Nichols was found. It was dark. Some lamps around.

Somebody turning onto Buck's row is even further away than the furthest person you can see in the background of that photo and even they are far away from the man who has just walked by the gates where Nichols was found.

It is simply inexplicable that the murderer needed to stay there with someone coming in the distance.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether Buck’s Row is a ‘long road’. I’d call something like the Commercial Road a long road and Buck’s Row a back street. Of course, we’re not even talking about the whole length of Buck’s Row, just the bit between the stable yard and wherever Paul was when Lechmere first became aware of him.

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