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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #451  
Old 11-15-2018, 02:47 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Didn't Pickfords employ a lot of people? In the type of business they were in I think it is safe to assume they would have had a skeleton staff on at weekend even if it were just security. So wouldn't they want to know what Cross was doing there on his day off in the middle of the night? {Hi lads just called in for a brew?] And if no one was there [ which I doubt], how did he get in the building? Did they give a key to every employee.
Far likely if Jack had a bolt hole near Mitre it was private premises like a small shop for instance, which he had a key to and which he knew would be empty.

As for it being quiet, yes it probably was to normal victorian nights, Walter Purkiss said it was unusually quiet. But we still have people out and about going to work etc. Paul, Cross, the slaughtermen in the next street, Polly, Pc Neil
The slaughtermen only came out when they heard about the murder, Darryl. But I am happy to repeat myself again - it seems there is no end to it.

Lechmere said that he met nobody during his trek from Doveton Street to Bucks Row.

Paul saw that he saw not a soul until he noticed Lechmere.

Neil said that there was not a soul on the back streets, they were totally empty.

Now, the only thing this goes to prove is that what these men bore witness to, was a complete lack of people out on the streets. Of course, they may have missed Mr Phantom killer, so there is absolutely room to squeeze him in for anyone so inclined.

But letīs not paint a picture of these streets being dotted with working men, prostitues, flower sellers and people walking arm in arm down them, making it hard for the PC:s to walk in a straight line! As far as we know, they lay empty and quiet, but that does not mean that Mr Phantom killer could not have been out on them.

Okay? Can we agree on this?

As for Pickfords, we simply donīt know if there was anybody there at that time, and if so, how many and where. We donīt know the number of entrances, we donīt know if Lechmere had keys to the establishment after having worked there - as it seems - for two decades plus.
These are unknown factors, and it therefore remains a possibility that he headed there after killing Eddowes.

Is that agreed too?
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  #452  
Old 11-15-2018, 02:48 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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He waited for Paul in the darkness but could hear his footsteps. He called Paul over to him when he could see him. Paul didn't want to go. Paul required convincing to go over.

That clashes with your secondary objective.

The fact is that in this incident Cross has all the time in the world to get away, but didn't, and that is inexplicable.
In your world, perhaps, but not in mine. I have in fact explained how it may have worked a thousand times. I have before recommended that you read up on psychopathy. Did you take the advice?
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  #453  
Old 11-15-2018, 02:50 AM
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His name did not get into the papers, so that worked.

You may question whether it is plausible that a killer almost caught in the act might brazen it out. I think it is.
He wasn't almost caught in the act.

That's just not possible unless Paul jumped out from a doorstep nearby or something.

Buck's row is a long road.

https://wiki.casebook.org/images/thu...px-Bucks38.jpg

Have a look at the background distance all the way up to the gates where Nichols was found. It was dark. Some lamps around.

Now, look how far Cross must go to get away around the corner.
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  #454  
Old 11-15-2018, 03:01 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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He wasn't almost caught in the act.

That's just not possible unless Paul jumped out from a doorstep nearby or something.

Buck's row is a long road.

https://wiki.casebook.org/images/thu...px-Bucks38.jpg

Have a look at the background distance all the way up to the gates where Nichols was found. It was dark. Some lamps around.

Now, look how far Cross must go to get away around the corner.
Maybe you have not understood what is suggested. It is not suggested that he could not have bolted, it is suggested that he chose to stay.

You find that incredible, I donīt.

The one way you can get rid of the suggestion is by proving that noone would choose to stay put.

Otherwise, you can claim that it would be very unusual, and then Iīd agree with you.

So which choice do you make?
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  #455  
Old 11-15-2018, 03:06 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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A matter that should be weighed in is how the clothing was pulled over the wounds as Paul arrived. Nichols did not do that herself. The killer did it.

So if Lechmere was the killer, then we can see how he first heard Paul approaching, then he did NOT leg it, but instead calmly covered up the wounds in Nicholsī belly by pulling the clothing down.

Does the act of pulling the clothing down implicate to you that the killer was hellbent on running or that he had decided to bluff it out? Which course of action does it fit with? Any ideas?

Or are you reasoning that it was another killer, a P Hantom, who did it, a killer who had bolted long before Lechmere - who said he would have noticed any movement up at the body - came into the street? If so, why do you think this killer (who incidentally came to be known as the Ripper, and who seems to have had no wish whatsoever to cover any wounds up, on the contrary) hid the wounds of Nichols before leaving the scene?

Can you see how the logic works here? Although you may not like it, can you see the sequence of events, as suggested by me?

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-15-2018 at 03:08 AM.
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  #456  
Old 11-15-2018, 03:12 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Now, the only thing this goes to prove is that what these men bore witness to, was a complete lack of people out on the streets. ?
A complete lack of people on the street ?

The Coroner: I did not ask you whether you like them; I ask you whether there were any about that night.
Witness Tomkins: I did not see any.
The Coroner: Not in Whitechapel-road?
Witness: Oh, yes, there, of all sorts and sizes; its a rough neighbourhood, I can tell you



The Coroner: Whitechapel-road is busy in the early morning, I believe. Could anybody have escaped that way?
Witness PC Neil : Oh yes, sir. I saw a number of women in the main road going home. At that time any one could have got away.




PC Thain:There were one or two working men going down Brady-street shortly before I was called by Neale.
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  #457  
Old 11-15-2018, 03:44 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post


So if Lechmere was the killer, then we can see how he first heard Paul approaching, then he did NOT leg it, but instead calmly covered up the wounds in Nicholsī belly by pulling the clothing down.

Does the act of pulling the clothing down implicate to you that the killer was hellbent on running or that he had decided to bluff it out? Which course of action does it fit with? Any ideas
?

So, does he know for sure how much Paul saw as he approached? Doesn't he wonder whether silencing Paul is a safer prospect than running with him to find a copper with him? Silent streets...?
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  #458  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:24 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
A complete lack of people on the street ?

The Coroner: I did not ask you whether you like them; I ask you whether there were any about that night.
Witness Tomkins: I did not see any.
The Coroner: Not in Whitechapel-road?
Witness: Oh, yes, there, of all sorts and sizes; its a rough neighbourhood, I can tell you



The Coroner: Whitechapel-road is busy in the early morning, I believe. Could anybody have escaped that way?
Witness PC Neil : Oh yes, sir. I saw a number of women in the main road going home. At that time any one could have got away.




PC Thain:There were one or two working men going down Brady-street shortly before I was called by Neale.
Henry Tomkins can only have been referring to when he and Britten went for their break, around the time the pubs were chucking out their customers. Yep, the Whitechapel Road would have been busy then. But far less so at 3.30/45, wouldn’t you say?

Just ‘one or two working men’ recorded in Brady Street? Sounds like the streets were almost deserted.
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  #459  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:30 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Henry Tomkins can only have been referring to when he and Britten went for their break, around the time the pubs were chucking out their customers. Yep, the Whitechapel Road would have been busy then. But far less so at 3.30/45, wouldn’t you say?

I don`t know, I think that was the time the coroner was referring to.


Quote:
Just ‘one or two working men’ recorded in Brady Street? Sounds like the streets were almost deserted.

Recorded in Brady Street just before he was called by Neil
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  #460  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:32 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Batman View Post
He wasn't almost caught in the act.

That's just not possible unless Paul jumped out from a doorstep nearby or something.

Buck's row is a long road.

https://wiki.casebook.org/images/thu...px-Bucks38.jpg

Have a look at the background distance all the way up to the gates where Nichols was found. It was dark. Some lamps around.

Now, look how far Cross must go to get away around the corner.
I said ‘if’. How long do you imagine it would have taken Paul to cover the 40 yards between him and the body? And having seen or heard someone haring off from the spot to have immediately understood there was foul play at hand and started yelling at the top of his lungs?

By no stretch of the imagination is Buck’s Row a long road. And forty yards is forty yards in any road.
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