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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis

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  #11  
Old 09-15-2018, 01:25 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUT View Post
But still they describe two different people, about 5 inches height difference.
When it came to the height I believe in Levy or Long rather than Lawende because the difference between the killer and victim they had seen.While estimating the height without comparing 2 people was more guesswork.
They saw the same couple so Levy's testimony was as valid as Lawende - who was trusted and used as a witness later on.They chosed Lawende over Levy because Lawende paid more attention to the couple than Levy.

----
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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana

Last edited by Varqm : 09-15-2018 at 01:29 AM.
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  #12  
Old 09-17-2018, 02:07 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Levy "accurately" determined Chapman's height at 5 feet.When it came to "heights" Levy was a better witness than Lawende.
Just by this simple fact and Long's testimony Tumblety could be eliminated as a suspect..

---
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
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  #13  
Old 09-17-2018, 07:26 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Whitechapel View Post
Thanks for your interest.

Bernard Beaule addressed some of the issues against Tumblety being JTR at the Baltimore Conference.

On his height most witnesses describe a man of about 35-36 5 foot 6 inches and one said he had a deerstalker (Sherlock Holmes ?)

Beaule addresses this by saying he could have been viewed at a distance or disguised his height. Tumblety was ostentatious in America, but did he dress down in Britain ?

On homosexuality being a barrier he says this:

"Although quite rare, homosexual serials preferring women as victims is a known fact, Edward Theodore Gein probably being the most monstrous of all. Some serial killers were bisexual such as Albert Howard Fish, Henry Lee Lucas and Marc Dutroux which allows us to accept the hypothesis that a homosexual such as Tumblety could have murdered women regardless of his sexual orientation"

The idea of Tumblety contracting out is attractive but who would he have got to do it ? The Star made it a high profile case and if you were caught you would most certainly have been hanged.

However if Tumblety was the Euston medical man, he had a cast iron alibi that liberated him and the police were watching him too. If that was the case to be involved he would have had to contract out.

It is an intriguing case but it would help if we knew what Tumblety was doing on October when the pattern broke and what he was doing in Birminghan. The missing Scotland yard file would shed light on his activities and what a find that would be if it resurfaced. But like most new discoveries there would be more questions than answers.
Ive always thought that if Tumblety was involved he found someone to do his dirty work. And that person being Chapman.


perhaps they met because they were both "doctors". I could see Tumblety meeting Chapman this way and asking how he could obtail female organ "specimins" having failed to get them by inquiring at the medical schools (the coronor story), and saying he would pay nicely for them. and chapman takes matters into his own hands.


i know it sounds crazy but could explain alot. and as I said abberline had a similar theory.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #14  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:07 PM
Hercule Poirot Hercule Poirot is offline
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Sorry if I didn't react sooner to this thread. I've been rather busy during the past months, traveled where I had no internet access and am now down in Mexico where I live.


At the Baltimore conference, I covered many issues related to Tumblety including height and Tumblety's sexual orientation Whitechapel pointed out above many of them applicable to other Ripper suspects.



If you want to have a look at the text I prepared for the conference and was part of the London JTR confrence delegate kit, here's the link : https://www.dropbox.com/s/ttncn523a8...ion.pdf?dl= 0


I've also made some comments on circumstantial evidence and behavior patterns.
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  #15  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:36 PM
Hercule Poirot Hercule Poirot is offline
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Default The question of height and witness testimonies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
Anne Chapman: 5' tall

Mrs. Elizabeth Long : He appeared to me to be a little taller than the deceased.

Catherine Eddowes: 5 feet tall

Mr. Joseph Hyam Levy: I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high.

Lawende: 5 ft. 7 or 8 in,but no comparison to the victim which was easy/easier to see/compare than estimate the height.


The height is a big problem for Tumblety as a suspect.How did he disguise height?

---



We need to be careful with witness statements taken by the police or witness testimonies given in the inquiries regarding possible JTR suspects. We're talking about night time observations often made from a distance. Stewart Evans shared his personal experience with testimonies and statements: https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html


As for one's height, it's would have probably been the easiest thing to disguise if it needed to be increased or decreased. The average temperatures during the murder events being around 50 F and in London's rainiest season, men would wear overcoats or capes conceiling the method used. In my novel, 'My Ripper Hunting Days' one of my characters explains how it could be done.



Cheers,
Hecule Poirot
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  #16  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:01 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
Levy "accurately" determined Chapman's height at 5 feet.When it came to "heights" Levy was a better witness than Lawende.
Just by this simple fact and Long's testimony Tumblety could be eliminated as a suspect..

---
It should say "Levy "accurately" determined Eddowe's height at 5 feet.

----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana

Last edited by Varqm : 11-14-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:09 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercule Poirot View Post
We need to be careful with witness statements taken by the police or witness testimonies given in the inquiries regarding possible JTR suspects. We're talking about night time observations often made from a distance. Stewart Evans shared his personal experience with testimonies and statements: https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html


As for one's height, it's would have probably been the easiest thing to disguise if it needed to be increased or decreased. The average temperatures during the murder events being around 50 F and in London's rainiest season, men would wear overcoats or capes conceiling the method used. In my novel, 'My Ripper Hunting Days' one of my characters explains how it could be done.



Cheers,
Hecule Poirot
But still comparing two people standing close to each other was better than just estimating without comparing,and height need not be mentioned,only if one was taller than the other.Levy happened to estimate Eddowe's height correctly,so I gave more credibility to his estimate,3 inches taller or a bit taller and to a lesser degree Long as well.
As far as any other descriptions,sure people could make mistakes.As I posted before people are thinking about something else when an incident occurred as opposed to preparing to observe it,so they are bound to miss things or things could be unclear.They even go as afar as using hypnosis to induce "accuracy".


-----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana

Last edited by Varqm : 11-14-2018 at 09:18 PM.
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