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Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - by rjpalmer 28 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by rjpalmer 34 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Wickerman 47 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Sam Flynn 1 hours ago.
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - by Trevor Marriott 1 hour and 15 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by caz 2 hours ago.

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Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (4 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - (2 posts)
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #381  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:39 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Batman View Post
It's a predictive model. It explains why he went south-west and explains why he will go north-west next, which he did.

If this was happening today, investigators would focus on the areas left to hit in.

However, it is unlikely to happen as often today because of criminal forensic awareness.

JtR didn't have any of that in 1888.

JtR is a classic example of a murder, murdering around an anchor point.

There is literally nothing pointing away from this.

Also, it is perfectly in-line with the Goulston St., apron drop.

More profiling, we will not agree on this subject, I do not view it as science.
You have a different view, no problem.

In all honesty there is little to be gained by debating it given our differing views on profiling.


Steve
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  #382  
Old 11-14-2018, 09:46 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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John, the argument that he headed towards Mitre Square is solely based on fitting the crime to the man.
There appears to be little to back the suggestion up, other than its relatively near to Lechmere' s workplace, and on a route he MAY have used when living south of the Whitechapel Road.
Indeed even the argument that this was where the women may have been, hence he goes there, is far from convincing. On that night it seems there were few about the area of Mitre Square at that time. Of course one may argue that the woman seen by Lawende was not Eddowes so that could be 1 other, but even so it does not seem from reports that it was heavily populated that night.


Steve
Hi El and JohnG

well whoever JtR was he headed towrd Mitre square. If it was lech I think he was just distancing himself from berner street and headed to try and find another victim.
I don't think anything more really needs to be read into, except maybe what Gary just mentioned.
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Last edited by Abby Normal : 11-14-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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  #383  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:02 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Hi El and JohnG

well whoever JtR was he headed towrd Mitre square. If it was lech I think he was just distancing himself from berner street and headed to try and find another victim.
I don't think anything more really needs to be read into, except maybe what Gary just mentioned.
Abby,
I can go with that.
Of course it does require Stride to be a victim, and mainly I go with that view too.

My issue is trying to tie the route into specific reasons for the spot. Such as Batman's Geoprofileing or the Old route to work idea for Lech.


Steve
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  #384  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:19 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
More profiling, we will not agree on this subject, I do not view it as science.
You have a different view, no problem.

In all honesty there is little to be gained by debating it given our differing views on profiling.


Steve
I don't believe profiling is a science. It is just a bit of criminology.

What I can do is give examples of what I have described throughout historical criminology, time and time again.

In other words, it is a predictive model with examples.

Also, it will be used by investigators concentrating on where he will hit next. Which is how they select places for stakeouts trying to catch an offender, such as a serial burglar.
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  #385  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:36 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Batman View Post
I don't believe profiling is a science. It is just a bit of criminology.

What I can do is give examples of what I have described throughout historical criminology, time and time again.

In other words, it is a predictive model with examples.

Also, it will be used by investigators concentrating on where he will hit next. Which is how they select places for stakeouts trying to catch an offender, such as a serial burglar.
Hi,

You may not view it as science, but many do.

I view profiling as a useful tool, that MAY help in SOME cases. The example of serial burglars is a very fine one, that however is not the same as serial killers.

We have different views on how useful profiling is or can be, I respect your view, even if I don't agree with it.


Steve
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  #386  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:08 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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A lot has been said about the Police not knowing about Geo profiling [apologies if this point should be on the other thread], while that is true up to a point, they did have knowledge of the streets and the area [more, certainly than we do today]. This is what Anderson said - One did not need to be a Sherlock Holmes to know he was living in the immediate vicinity of the scenes of the murders. Is it so hard to disagree with him?
Also in a reply to a previous post I made about Cross turning up for work after the Double murder Fish replied that it was a Sunday and he doubted he would be working that morning. So what was he doing in Mitre Square? And what was he doing hanging around for half an hour if Pc long is to be believed? After Berner St if he wanted to kill again why not head back northwards maybe towards Doveton St or Cambridge Heath Rd areas he would know well [since he once lived there], closer to home yet still far enough away from were he now resided.
I am of the meaning that once he had slain Stride and was disturbed before being able to disembowel her, he set out for a new victim. In doing so, he chose to move to another police precinct, the City police´s ditto. The reason would be that he worked from the assumption that they were not alerted the way the Met was.
Lechmere would also be aware that there were victims to find up at St Botolphs, having trekked past it for many years, and the spot may have offered the possibility to go to Pickfords nearby afterwards to wash up. As you may remember, the rag in Goulston Street was not there on Longs first round, it only turned up at the next round, meaning that the killer seems not to have returned east immediately after the strike.
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  #387  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:15 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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The man's name was Charles Allen Lechmere. How can it be claimed that his real name was 'introduced' to justify him as a liar? That's who he was.

My take on why he may have deliberately withheld the name is probably different from Christer's. I think it may have been the name itself he was defending.
My take is not set in stone, Gary. There is merit in the suggestion that he may have wished to protect the family name.
My reasoning goes like this:
If he felt he had no choice but to go to the inquest, he may have felt inclined to hide his identity from those who knew him.
If he had chosen to lie about all parts of his identity, the police would have revealed that if they checked the information, and he would be in very bad trouble.
So what COULD he hide?
Well, he could not hide his address from the police, if they checked.
He could not hide his working place, for the same reason.
But he COULD provide them with another name than his official one, and claim to use Cross at times - it was not unlawful. If the police did not ask "Is this your registered name", he would be in the clear.
At the inquest, with the press present, he could take it a step further, by not naming his address - and it seems he may not have done so, since only the Star had it, implicating that they may have gotten it from a desk clerk, whereas the other papers missed out on account of his omission.

To me, it is a bit too much of a coincidence that the exact measures he was able to take to hide his identity also seems to have been taken, and so I opt for him deliberately concealing information to mislead those who read the inquest reports - or had it read to them...
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  #388  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:22 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I wouldn't necessarily infer guilt from his unwillingness to associate his name with the sordid murder of a prostitute in a Whitechapel back street. Rather an unwillingness to associate his honourable name with such an event.
There are possibilities to choose from, and it is hard to rate them. But it remains that if one researches Lechmere as a suspect, then the name business does not do him any good at all. I agree with what Scobie said in this context, "He is somebody who seems to be acting, to be behaving in a way that is suspicious, which a jury would not like".

The name matter is just such a thing, regardless if it is innocent or not - no jury likes it unless a sound explanation is provided.
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  #389  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:25 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Batman:
What's Cross doing with a Liston knife going to work down Buck's Row?

What was Ted Bundy doing, driving to Lake Sammamish with handcuffs, a ligature and a crowbar in his car? The same thing as Lechmere: looking for prey.

How did Cross avoid being caught with a knife when he is out at an hour going to work when JtR was striking and 500+ PCs (on shift work) actively looking for JtR, especially in the early hours?

So now the police frisked all people out in the streets...? I thought they were all up at Aldgate, safeguarding that noone passed there.
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  #390  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
Well, Old Broad Street is only 0.4 miles away from Mitre Street, or say a 6-9 minute walk. However, Mitre Street would not be on his route to work, without significant diversions. More problematic for me is why would he be heading in the direction of his employment in the early hours of the morning?

I mean, after Berner Street, did he say to himself, "well that was an unsatisfying experience, I'll head off to somewhere near to where I work to find another victim". Because I think that would be an odd thing to do.
How about "That got the coppers of the Met on their feet, so I´d better get out of here. Maybe I should kill on City territory now? Up at St Botolph´s?"

How´s that?
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