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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #361  
Old 11-14-2018, 04:46 AM
Batman Batman is online now
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What's Cross doing with a Liston knife going to work down Buck's Row?

How did Cross avoid being caught with a knife when he is out at an hour going to work when JtR was striking and 500+ PCs (on shift work) actively looking for JtR, especially in the early hours?
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  #362  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:35 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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What's Cross doing with a Liston knife going to work down Buck's Row?

How did Cross avoid being caught with a knife when he is out at an hour going to work when JtR was striking and 500+ PCs (on shift work) actively looking for JtR, especially in the early hours?
Perhaps he wasn’t wearing his ‘I’m carrying a sharp knife’ lapel badge. Some serial killers are devious like that.
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  #363  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:36 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Fake history? Hardly. Thats how history is done monty. You interpret and analyze events. Fish is interpreting the events a certain way, a way in which points to lechmere as being a likely candidate for the ripper. He hasnt fabricated any facts.
He hasnt declared the case is proven. He just siad he thinks lech is the ripper and stated why. Whats wrong with that.

Ill tell you what Fake history is —-its when you falsely accuse someone of something. Apologizing is good, but the damage is already done.
Bet you get a great view up there on your high horse Abby,

Fake history is a reference to the biased recollection of Christer, as opposed to this specific murder case.

Monty
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Last edited by Monty : 11-14-2018 at 05:43 AM.
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  #364  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:40 AM
John G John G is offline
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Well, his route to work from STGITE would probably have taken him in that direction. I believe that's Fish's thinking.

Also, although CAL said he had worked for Pickfords for over 20 years, he didn't say he had worked exclusively out of the Broad Street depot, and in his earlier years with the firm they also operated out of the Haydon Square depot, which was close by Mitre Square. I once found a list of the Pickfords Haydon Square cricket team (1860s). Sadly there was no Cross or Lechmere on it. Possibly as an H Div. cop living just north of Cable Street, Thomas Cross may have been better known at Haydon Square than at Broad Street in the City?
Well, Old Broad Street is only 0.4 miles away from Mitre Street, or say a 6-9 minute walk. However, Mitre Street would not be on his route to work, without significant diversions. More problematic for me is why would he be heading in the direction of his employment in the early hours of the morning?

I mean, after Berner Street, did he say to himself, "well that was an unsatisfying experience, I'll head off to somewhere near to where I work to find another victim". Because I think that would be an odd thing to do.
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  #365  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:42 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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I can't recall who posted the research. It's on here somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

It's possible that CAL thought giving evidence at an inquest was a less formal affair than registering his kids at school etc etc etc, but I doubt it. You're a man who might know these things through personal experience, are people who would feel obliged to give their real names in a court of law more relaxed about things at an inquest, happy to give any old street name to a coroner?

I have no problem with the idea that he may have obtained his job at Pickfords as Charles Cross, but would he still have been using the name almost two decades after his stepfather had died? Were the kids known as Cross at home and Lechmere at school?

I wouldn't necessarily infer guilt from his unwillingness to associate his name with the sordid murder of a prostitute in a Whitechapel back street. Rather an unwillingness to associate his honourable name with such an event.
I have indeed experience with regards the use of alternate names and addresses, and they are varied. And valid.

The acknowledgment re inference is pleasing to note. It’s not a peg for one should use when building a case for a suspect. Such practice wouldn’t pass the CPS stage.

With regards his use of Cross, I prefer to stick with what he stated at inquest, for the reasons given. That said, it’s not a huge issue to me to be honest.

Monty
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  #366  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:58 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Well, Old Broad Street is only 0.4 miles away from Mitre Street, or say a 6-9 minute walk. However, Mitre Street would not be on his route to work, without significant diversions. More problematic for me is why would he be heading in the direction of his employment in the early hours of the morning?

I mean, after Berner Street, did he say to himself, "well that was an unsatisfying experience, I'll head off to somewhere near to where I work to find another victim". Because I think that would be an odd thing to do.
Or ‘I’ll head off to an area I’m familiar with to look for another victim. An area away from STGITE where I killed earlier this morning and away from Spitalfields and Whitechapel where I’ve killed in recent weeks.’

That’d be really odd.🤔

Where would you have recommended a frustrated killer went to slake his blood lust? Margate? Havering-atte-Bower?
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  #367  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:58 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Yes, and that's rather odd.

Someone once trawled through the Old Bailey records and came up with a long list of men who identified themselves by a surname other than that on their birth certs. I think the intention was to show that adopting a step parent's name etc and using it in court was a common occurrence. As indeed it was. But the reason we knew it had happened was that in every case the accused/witness also felt it appropriate to reveal their 'real' name.

'My name is Joe Bloggs, but I go by the name of Smith which is my stepfather's name' kind of thing.

Curiously, Charles Lechmere didn't do that. And the only other time we know he may have used the name Cross was when he killed a child with his cart. I say may, because it's possible that the driver of the cart was another Charles Cross who worked for Pickfords. I'm sure there's no need for me to repeat the mantra about the 100+ times he used the name Lechmere in his dealings with the authorities.

Gary,

That is a fair point about the giving of aliases; however we must not forget the very important difference. That research,by Kattrup I think, was based on the actual transcripts from the old Bailey, in criminal court. The Inquest while a legal proceeding was not the same .
And we do not have the transcript, but have to rely on press reports, which are far from perfect.

Therefore the comparison is far from conclusive, the best we can say is that the press did not report the name Lechmere, and in all probability he did not mention it, but it is not truly conclusive.


Steve

Last edited by Elamarna : 11-14-2018 at 06:08 AM.
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  #368  
Old 11-14-2018, 06:04 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Gary,

That is a fair point about the giving of aliases; however we must not forget the very important difference. That research,by Kattrup I think, was based on the actual transcripts from the old Bailey, in criminal court. The Inquest while a legal proceedings was not the same .
And we do not have the transcript, but have to rely on press reports, which are far from perfect.

Therefore the comparison is far from conclusive, the best we can say is that the press did not report the name Lechmere, and in all probability he did not mention it, but it is not truly conclusive.


Steve
Thanks, Steve, I believe it was Kattrup. That’ll help me track it down.

Did I imply it was conclusive? It’s possible that he gave both names but the press and the police neglected to take note of the more important one I suppose.
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  #369  
Old 11-14-2018, 06:06 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Here’s the thread I was referring to. Excellent work by Kattrup:

https://forum.casebook.org/showthrea...ighlight=Alias
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  #370  
Old 11-14-2018, 06:10 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Thanks, Steve, I believe it was Kattrup. That’ll help me track it down.

Did I imply it was conclusive? It’s possible that he gave both names but the press and the police neglected to take note of the more important one I suppose.
Sorry Gary, i didnt mean to imply you had implied such, only that the possibility, even if remote should not be overlooked. I always find your views of CAL, to be well reasoned and realistic.


Steve
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