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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

View Poll Results: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?
Yes 65 83.33%
No 9 11.54%
Undecided 4 5.13%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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  #761  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:52 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
The most interesting thing about including Stride or Kelly, or not, and believing in an anatomy experienced JtR, or not, is that none of those factors can actually be direct evidence for JtR.

They are circumstantial at best.
Perhaps if one looks at all of the evidence,Kelly and Stride are very important.

Have a good look at Stride's bottom lip and the fact that she died while accepting a packet of cachous.

As nobody can find any Mary Jane Kelly,perhaps the Mary Ann Kelly baptised at Shoreditch Church is an excellent choice.
Odd that her body was sent to the Vestry's mortuary.

So, who is a common factor that also has considerable experience in anatomy?
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  #762  
Old 11-09-2018, 12:04 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Sam
You clearly only see what you want to see and heavily biased in favour of the killer removing the organs

Kelly’s body had been treated like a butchers carcass that is a fact

That is what Bond is referring to in his report

It’s also a fact that the doctors in the cases of Eddowes and Chapman saw anatomical knowledge that is a fact and is recorded. If you don’t agree with those doctors that’s your prerogative but those real facts are not going to go away

There is nothing else to debate on this topic

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Trevor this is post 723 in your reply to Sam
Can I ask again please Trevor, if the killer did not take any organs away what anatomical knowledge do you think the Doctors saw in the murders of Annie and Kate to make them think the murderer displayed such anatomical knowledge? I put it to you Trevor that the very reason they thought he displayed anatomical knowledge was because of the removal of the organs.

Last edited by Darryl Kenyon : 11-09-2018 at 12:08 AM.
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  #763  
Old 11-09-2018, 12:16 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
It was out in the open, but the nurses cleaned/touched it inside the mortuary,"taken into the shed, and placed on the table".Yes I believed in Chandler that nobody touched it except the nurses more than "no evidence" otherwise and I do not believe the doctor's and coroner got fooled into believing organs were taken by the killer but actually it was taken at the mortuary.Can you give us an instance in 1800's where a post-mortem was conducted,organs were taken, and it turned out to be it was taken illegally at the mortuary?
We do not have that PC's testimony so we do not know what he did.
The Anatomy Act should not be mentioned because it could not have undermined the power of the coroner and the ability to conduct an impartial inquest.And a relative has to approve before the body can be used for "science'.

---
It doesnt matter where the body was if it was tampered with in the way I suggest.

Permission was not needed where no relatives could be found.

We dont have the Pc`s testimony, nor do we have any evidence as to how many other people could have had access to the body one way or another, or did have access during that 12 hour window. So my theory cannot be ruled out. But you are entitled to believe what you want, but I would say dont be blinkered in your approach.

The Anatomy Act is very relevant because it goes some way to corroborate this alternative theory.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #764  
Old 11-09-2018, 12:23 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Trevor this is post 723 in your reply to Sam
Can I ask again please Trevor, if the killer did not take any organs away what anatomical knowledge do you think the Doctors saw in the murders of Annie and Kate to make them think the murderer displayed such anatomical knowledge? I put it to you Trevor that the very reason they thought he displayed anatomical knowledge was because of the removal of the organs.
The anatomical knowledge was shown in the killer finding the location of the organs, and then removing them with anatomical knowledge. As the doctors state. I am not to sure what point you are trying to prove?

The murders were simply murder and mutilation in what can be described as blitz attacks on the victims.

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  #765  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:57 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
It doesnt matter where the body was if it was tampered with in the way I suggest.

Permission was not needed where no relatives could be found.

We dont have the Pc`s testimony, nor do we have any evidence as to how many other people could have had access to the body one way or another, or did have access during that 12 hour window. So my theory cannot be ruled out. But you are entitled to believe what you want, but I would say dont be blinkered in your approach.

The Anatomy Act is very relevant because it goes some way to corroborate this alternative theory.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
I guess we have to disagree,your theory can't be entirely dismissed.All I'm saying is Robert Mann,mortuary keeper of the workhouse,was not involved in a scheme to illegally procure organs,he was present in the workhouse where/when Nichols and Chapman's body were sent,if there was a scheme why they/he did not do it in Nichol's case.

Insp. chandler left the "shed' ,left the PC in charge, that instead of guessing what might have occurred,under oath,that "except when twonurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse" that he instead asked Robert Mann and the Pc if somebody else ,aside from the two nurses ,touched the body.

-----
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  #766  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:41 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Robert Mann was able to secure Nichol's body from "organ harvesting " then there's no reason to doubt he did it with Chapman's.

----
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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
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  #767  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:27 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
The anatomical knowledge was shown in the killer finding the location of the organs, and then removing them with anatomical knowledge. As the doctors state. I am not to sure what point you are trying to prove?

The murders were simply murder and mutilation in what can be described as blitz attacks on the victims.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Trevor again, your post 273 - Kelly’s body had been treated like a butchers carcass that is a fact

That is what Bond is referring to in his report

It’s also a fact that the doctors in the cases of Eddowes and Chapman saw anatomical knowledge that is a fact and is recorded. If you don’t agree with those doctors that’s your prerogative but those real facts are not going to go away

There is nothing else to debate on this topic

Trevor, You are arguing here that one reason Mary was not killed by Jack was because he showed no anatomical knowledge, Yes or no?
Whereas you are also arguing that Annie and Kates killer showed anatomical knowledge, so he couldn't possibly have murdered Mary whose killer had no surgical skill whatsoever Yes or no?
Yet that same anatomical knowledge shown, is the removal of the organs, Yes or no?
Yet you do not believe the killer removed any organs whatsoever, Yes or no?
So if that is the case then the killer showed no anatomical skill, the doctors were wrong because someone else removed said organs and he showed no skill just as in Mary's murder, Yes or no?
Sorry for being pedantic but you really have me confused on your position
Darryl
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  #768  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:45 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Trevor again, your post 273 - Kelly’s body had been treated like a butchers carcass that is a fact

That is what Bond is referring to in his report

It’s also a fact that the doctors in the cases of Eddowes and Chapman saw anatomical knowledge that is a fact and is recorded. If you don’t agree with those doctors that’s your prerogative but those real facts are not going to go away

There is nothing else to debate on this topic

Trevor, You are arguing here that one reason Mary was not killed by Jack was because he showed no anatomical knowledge, Yes or no?
Whereas you are also arguing that Annie and Kates killer showed anatomical knowledge, so he couldn't possibly have murdered Mary whose killer had no surgical skill whatsoever Yes or no?
Yet that same anatomical knowledge shown, is the removal of the organs, Yes or no?
Yet you do not believe the killer removed any organs whatsoever, Yes or no?
So if that is the case then the killer showed no anatomical skill, the doctors were wrong because someone else removed said organs and he showed no skill just as in Mary's murder, Yes or no?
Sorry for being pedantic but you really have me confused on your position
Darryl
I am afraid you are losing me

I do not believe the killer removed any organs and took them away as In Chapman and Eddowes, where anatomical knowledge was displayed in how the organs were removed. There was no anatomical knowledge shown in their actual murders

With regards to kelly there was no anatomical knowledge shown in either her murder, or the removal of the organs that were found scattered around the room.

I hope that clarifies my position

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #769  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:50 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Trevor again, your post 273 - Kelly’s body had been treated like a butchers carcass that is a fact

That is what Bond is referring to in his report

It’s also a fact that the doctors in the cases of Eddowes and Chapman saw anatomical knowledge that is a fact and is recorded. If you don’t agree with those doctors that’s your prerogative but those real facts are not going to go away

There is nothing else to debate on this topic

Trevor, You are arguing here that one reason Mary was not killed by Jack was because he showed no anatomical knowledge, Yes or no?
Whereas you are also arguing that Annie and Kates killer showed anatomical knowledge, so he couldn't possibly have murdered Mary whose killer had no surgical skill whatsoever Yes or no?
Yet that same anatomical knowledge shown, is the removal of the organs, Yes or no?
Yet you do not believe the killer removed any organs whatsoever, Yes or no?
So if that is the case then the killer showed no anatomical skill, the doctors were wrong because someone else removed said organs and he showed no skill just as in Mary's murder, Yes or no?
Sorry for being pedantic but you really have me confused on your position
Darryl
Hi DK
I too have been trying to figure out Trevors thoughts and I think I got it:

the C5 were all murdered and mutilated(by different people), no surgical skill shown,no organs removed by killer.

Eddowes and chapman had there organs removed by some interloper at the mortuary (not their killer) with surgical skill before the doctors got to them, so that when the doctors did the post mortem they detected surgical skill (and the organs missing).


kelly had no organs removed at all by anyone, even the "interlopers", hence the doctors saw no surgical skill.



sorry Trevor if I got anything wrong here-feel free to correct!
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  #770  
Old 11-09-2018, 09:50 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi DK
I too have been trying to figure out Trevors thoughts and I think I got it:

the C5 were all murdered and mutilated(by different people), no surgical skill shown,no organs removed by killer.

Eddowes and chapman had there organs removed by some interloper at the mortuary (not their killer) with surgical skill before the doctors got to them, so that when the doctors did the post mortem they detected surgical skill (and the organs missing).


kelly had no organs removed at all by anyone, even the "interlopers", hence the doctors saw no surgical skill.



sorry Trevor if I got anything wrong here-feel free to correct!
Abby
You got it about right but read the last para of my last post to tie it up

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