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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #261  
Old 10-23-2018, 08:22 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post

perhaps because it was such a messy and time consuming kill, he was too scared about getting caught and bolted, or something else scared him off.
he probably read one of your posts !

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  #262  
Old 10-23-2018, 08:27 AM
Batman Batman is online now
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Tabram's upper clothing was also disarranged. Her skirts were lifted giving her killer access to her stomach and her sexual organs He concentrated on her stomach and her upper body.

Killeen was of the opinion that only one injury was caused by the second weapon. The injury to her lower body was not a stab - it was 3ins long and 1in deep.

If people want to see a primarily sexual motive in Tabram's murder, they have to ignore or explain away the evidence of her wounds.
The clothing wasn't stabbed through. This woman was knocked out, had her clothes ripped (she certainly do it), her breasts stabbed and her private parts stabbed (see Swanson, this was held back).

It's a lust murder. A victim doesn't get her clothes ripped off in some sort of exchange gone wrong and her sexual areas assaulted with a knife, without it being a lust attack.

Dr. Keeling [sic] of 68 Brick Lane was called, and examined the body and found thirty nine wounds on body, and neck, and private part with a knife or dagger.’ - Swanson

This was held back. She had wounds to her private parts. Probably a knife wound.

East London Advertiser, ‘her hands were lying by her side, clenched up, and there was nothing in them. Her clothes were torn and completely disarranged, the bosom of the dress being torn away. She was in such a position as to lead him to infer that someone had been with her. Her clothes were thrown upwards.’ - PC Barrett.

All in Wescott's book The Bank Holiday Murders.
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  #263  
Old 10-23-2018, 08:35 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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She had wounds to her private parts. Probably a knife wound.
Wound. ONE wound out of 39.
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East London Advertiser, ‘her hands were lying by her side, clenched up, and there was nothing in them. Her clothes were torn and completely disarranged, the bosom of the dress being torn away. She was in such a position as to lead him to infer that someone had been with her. Her clothes were thrown upwards.’ - PC Barrett.
"She was in such a position as to lead him to infer that someone had been with her". And we all know what "been with her" means. She was a prostitute whose customer possibly got rough, freaked out and went berserk. The completely OTT stabs are entirely congruent with that scenario.
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  #264  
Old 10-23-2018, 08:42 AM
Batman Batman is online now
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Wound. ONE wound out of 39.

"She was in such a position as to lead him to infer that someone had been with her". And we all know what "been with her" means. She was a prostitute whose customer possibly got rough, freaked out and went berserk. The completely OTT stabs are entirely congruent with that scenario.
Sam, she didn't rip off her own clothes to have sex with him, obviously, right?

In no way is her crime scene involving her having sex with anybody although she may have planned it. There is no sign she was undressing to get ready for it. There was no sign of intercourse either so she didn't do it mostly clothed.

Her assailant didn't stab through her clothing either.

Her knocked her out.

He ripped off some of her clothes and ripped open the rest while she was unconscious. This exposed her private areas and he proceeded to stab her in the private areas mostly.

A lust murder. An early JtR. Chronological fits. Victimology fits. Evolution fits. Place fits. Time fits and associated directly with other characters in these crimes in that very small area.

She was posed in a missionary position like the others.
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  #265  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:25 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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would it make any difference if she had only one stab wound to the upper torso along with one to her private parts?
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  #266  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:30 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
would it make any difference if she had only one stab wound to the upper torso along with one to her private parts?
But she didn't. Instead, we have this

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (puncture wounds in upper body, mostly throat and chest)

versus this
|
(cut in some unspecified region of the private parts)
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  #267  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:37 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Tabram's upper clothing was also disarranged. Her skirts were lifted giving her killer access to her stomach and her sexual organs He concentrated on her stomach and her upper body.

Killeen was of the opinion that only one injury was caused by the second weapon. The injury to her lower body was not a stab - it was 3ins long and 1in deep.

If people want to see a primarily sexual motive in Tabram's murder, they have to ignore or explain away the evidence of her wounds.
Inflicting physical damage on somebody is for some people the only sexually gratifying act they can experience, Gary. It is not what you and I call sex, but it is the only outlet for sexuality these people know of. A prime example is Peter Kürten.
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  #268  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:46 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Inflicting physical damage on somebody is for some people the only sexually gratifying act they can experience, Gary. It is not what you and I call sex, but it is the only outlet for sexuality these people know of. A prime example is Peter Kürten.
I understand that, Fish. What I'm challenging is the suggestion that the nature of Tabram's wounds is such as to preclude a non-sexual motivation.
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  #269  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:55 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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I understand that, Fish. What I'm challenging is the suggestion that the nature of Tabram's wounds is such as to preclude a non-sexual motivation.
That´s of course another matter - and one that must be answered with a "no".
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  #270  
Old 10-24-2018, 03:08 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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I'm on the fence when it comes to Tabram but I lean towards NOT a Ripper victim. Firstly, we need to put the victim profile to one side because, as Sam rightly pointed out, violence and murder are occupational hazards for low-class prostitutes. There are too many discrepancies within the signature and mo for me to link Tabram with the 'canonical' victims. Tabram's killer (or killers) directed most of their stabbings to the upper body. There are little to no cuts or to the lower abdomen or vaginal area. There is nothing to be seen of the Ripper's fantasy of destroying the abdominal area to retrieve organs. It is difficult to accept that the killer went from frenzied stabbing to the upper body, to efficient throat-cutting and methodical slicing of the abdomen in a short space of time, notwithstanding the possibility that Polly's killer was disturbed and had more planned for her. It's not enough to argue that the killer's signature/mo wasn't fully formed, when he shifts from one to the other in a few weeks. That is not what is meant by an evolving signature.
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