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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #171  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:46 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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That's the point I was looking to make.

The leap between Nichols and Kelly is greater than the leap between Chapman and Nichols.
or nothing and nichols
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  #172  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:14 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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or nothing and nichols
Yeah, that would be very odd.
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  #173  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:29 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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I was referring to the canonical victims, Jon. McKenzie may have been stabbed, but she was not eviscerated.
Only 3 of the canonical victims were eviscerated.
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  #174  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:32 AM
John G John G is offline
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Very true, John - in the other cases, a quick death seems to have been high up in the agenda, whereas Killeen asserted that Tabram lived through her whole ordeal, up to the chest penetrating stab. That is an important difference, but what we must also take into account here is that there were signs of blunt force trauma to the head of Tabram, and so we may have a scenario where she was unconscious as the killer stabbed away. And if a prone body was all he was after, then he may have made do with a blow to the head to ensure it, and only moved on afterwards to the neck cutting business.
There are two thing to note in this context:

1. Llewellyn said that the abdominal wounds came first in the Nichols case. So it would seem that she may be part of a development that reached it´s form only in Hanbury Street. After that, the killer had shaped his MO for the outdoor killings.
2. The 1874 torso victim ALSO had received blows to the head, and so we may be looking at a logical development overall.
Thanks Christer.

The earlier Torso crimes might be linked to the latter dismemberment cases, or not. I think it can be argued both ways. However, this is obviously not the thread for an in depth discussion of the dismemberment cases, although I'm still planning a detailed post on the subject (I know I've been saying that since Easter, although I have completed quite a bit of research, so not something I'd forgotten!)

What I would say is that there's no way a single killer removed the uterus from the Whitehall victim, then with Tabram he transforms into a frenzied stabber, before sort of returning to plan A with Nichols or Chapman. That's not an evolution of a crime signature, just random chaos!

In fact, if that's what happened maybe George Chapman was JtR!

Last edited by John G : 10-22-2018 at 10:37 AM.
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  #175  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:39 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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In fact, if that's what happened maybe George Chapman was JtR!
If JtR had to off a partner, he would hardly rip her would he? That would like saying... "woohoo I am Jack!" There would be no more debate on who JtR was. So if JtR had to off a partner, they would do it in the most non-ripping way possible and hopefully one secret enough to get away with it. What method would he use?
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  #176  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:17 AM
John G John G is offline
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If JtR had to off a partner, he would hardly rip her would he? That would like saying... "woohoo I am Jack!" There would be no more debate on who JtR was. So if JtR had to off a partner, they would do it in the most non-ripping way possible and hopefully one secret enough to get away with it. What method would he use?
Yes, that's obviously possible. However, the problem is you now have no link between the C5 and Chapman's poisoning crimes. In fact, you also have a completely different motive.
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  #177  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:34 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Yes, that's obviously possible. However, the problem is you now have no link between the C5 and Chapman's poisoning crimes. In fact, you also have a completely different motive.
Yeah it's a different motive completely but at least we know he is capable of not just murder... but serial homicides. Not a bad start with considering a suspect from Whitechapel.
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  #178  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:01 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Only 3 of the canonical victims were eviscerated.
True enough, although Nichols was as close to evisceration as most people get. Certainly, Alice McKenzie did not have her abdomen cut open like Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly.
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  #179  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:07 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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let me ask you something Sam- if you discount Tabram-what preceeded Nichols?
Someone with a morbid fantasy to disembowel, which eventually became so extreme he had to act it out?
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surely the rippers technique/MO didnt spring fully formed with Nichols?
We might wonder the same about Tabram. Perhaps we should be looking for a murder victim who died from 38 stab-wounds, before that 37 (and so on).
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  #180  
Old 10-22-2018, 12:21 PM
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We might wonder the same about Tabram. Perhaps we should be looking for a murder victim who died from 38 stab-wounds, before that 37 (and so on).
Ah, but the stab wounds were the cause of death because of bleeding. So that is why we hear about the stab wounds but what we don't hear so much about is that her head had also sustained impact damage and it appears someone also attacked her private parts. She was also posed sexually and had her clothes ripped open not unlike Eddowes and Chapman. The victimology is there also. I think also we should assume she was strangled given her tongue is still popping out even in her morgue photo. The cause of death was given as stabbing and blood loss at her inquest, but there was much more that happened to her which was held back least they offend sensitive ears. Of course after Nichols and when Chapman appeared, they realized they shouldn't be holding things back like this because...

... they were connected all along.
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