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Most Recent Posts:
General Discussion: Ripper was several people... - by c.d. 32 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by jerryd 4 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Batman 5 hours ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by harry 5 hours ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Batman 7 hours ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Nihilist Club ie. Berner Street - by MrBarnett 7 hours ago.

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Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (40 posts)
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General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (1 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: The Nihilist Club ie. Berner Street - (1 posts)

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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #11  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:42 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Er, yes, if you headed for Haydon Square to exit the City and then went immediately back into the City (Aldgate). But why would anyone do that?

If you kept slightly to the east, you could cross Whitechapel High Street, with ne'er a City Bobby in sight.
If he exits Mitre Square, he has to cross Aldgate high street to get to Haydon square.
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Last edited by Batman : 10-21-2018 at 08:44 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:53 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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If he exits Mitre Square, he has to cross Aldgate high street to get to Haydon square.
You're right of course.
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  #13  
Old 10-21-2018, 08:59 AM
Busy Beaver Busy Beaver is offline
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Aaron Kosminski/Kozminski. If a very good photo of Aaron was presented to Casebook, then it can be gauged against the various descriptions that are abound of the Ripper. What puts me off this suspect is the fact he did suffer from mental health issues, but to exactly what extent does not seem to be really known. If he was as Ill in 1888 as he was in 1891, I don't think his mind would have been focused enough to kill and get away with it. I believe he would have been caught probably at the first hurdle and it would have been an extremely terrified Lech who would have saw Kozminski standing over staring a Polly's body, knife in hand and if Koz caught sight of Lech, probably would have chased Lech out of Bucks Row, hopefully to the safety of PC Neil. It would have been some commotion in Bucks Row that morning and anyone who said they never heard a thing was or saw anything was probably drunk, drugged or lying. If Polly had suspected Koz to be a little more strange than a normal punter, she might have even screamed before he even got near her.
I'm on the fence with Koz at present.
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  #14  
Old 10-21-2018, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post
What puts me off this suspect is the fact he did suffer from mental health issues, but to exactly what extent does not seem to be really known. If he was as Ill in 1888 as he was in 1891, I don't think his mind would have been focused enough to kill and get away with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Napper
Paranoid Schizophrenic with Asperger's Syndrome.

He was quite ill and yet a vicious murderer and rapist. He may have attacked more than 70 people. He murdered three. He also mutilated. He doesn't look remotely like he could be such a prolific offender.

He was remanded to Broadmoor hospital indefinitely.
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  #15  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:16 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post
Aaron Kosminski/Kozminski. If a very good photo of Aaron was presented to Casebook, then it can be gauged against the various descriptions that are abound of the Ripper.
Forget very good, any photo would do, we simply do not have any pictorial representation of the man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post
What puts me off this suspect is the fact he did suffer from mental health issues, but to exactly what extent does not seem to be really known. If he was as Ill in 1888 as he was in 1891, I don't think his mind would have been focused enough to kill and get away with it.
All we know is that he appeared in Court in 1889, on the unmuzzled dog charge, he did not appear to be ill at that point, certainly no where near his reported condition in 1891

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Originally Posted by Busy Beaver View Post
I believe he would have been caught probably at the first hurdle and it would have been an extremely terrified Lech who would have saw Kozminski standing over staring a Polly's body, knife in hand and if Koz caught sight of Lech, probably would have chased Lech out of Bucks Row, hopefully to the safety of PC Neil. It would have been some commotion in Bucks Row that morning and anyone who said they never heard a thing was or saw anything was probably drunk, drugged or lying. If Polly had suspected Koz to be a little more strange than a normal punter, she might have even screamed before he even got near her.
I'm on the fence with Koz at present.
There is every possibility that in 1888, he for the main appeared and acted normal, he may even have used prostitutes on a regular basis. He may not have appeared strange at all.


Steve
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  #16  
Old 10-21-2018, 12:07 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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What I am asking myself, regarding Charles Lechmere as the only good suspect and the probable Ripper, is something that is connected to a funny thing I came to think of years ago, and posted back then.

I´ll be off for some time now, so you will all have time to chew on the question. Who framed Lechmere?
I am not Elamarna nor have I pinned my mast to a particular suspect. Nor do I discount the possibility that Charles Lechmere could have been the Ripper. However, there is no evidence that he was. I think you overstate the case supporting his potential guilt. That he found the body? Somebody had to. That the murders were not far from one of his routes to work - well he walked the length of the area, so of course that would be the case. That Goulston street was on his way home from Mitre Square - so it was for many. What was the smoking gun for you?
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  #17  
Old 10-21-2018, 01:02 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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What all this speaks to is that JtR had murdered a few of his victims in very public areas to maximize shock value. He had murdered in several places where he knows that someone must come across his crime scene soon, especially a PC with a lantern, and so he has to get out of there fast. He even turned Kelly's head towards the door looking at whoever should come in. Placed her hand in her empty abdomen. The spread eagle evolving across the C5 and seen in other associated Whitechapel murders. So he is aware of people finding his victims. More than aware of it. It's part of his signature involving "open and displayed".

So his murders were not just done wherever an unfortunate brought him (you can be sure many met him and he didn't murder them because the conditions not favorable) but in an environment, he preferred and felt comfortable in. This appears to be significant streets in Whitechapel where the flow of people is to be found as they set off to work. The unfortunates go there also looking for punters. So in a way, it is comfort zone not unlike what Leechmere would have experienced with throughout his life going to work.

JtR was murdering in places where a Lechmere type Whitechapel working class person would find the body... or a PC. In fact, when you add up who found the bodies, this is what you get throughout the series.

To this extent, Lechmere is not causal to the Whitechapel murders because of his work routes. However, it is neither purely incidental nor is it coincidence. The Whitechapel murderer's MO and signature to involve the locals of Whitechapel is a selective one. He had created constraints around who will find his victim's bodies. If not a PC, then the other candidate is a working-class person's using these major roads and spots where unfortunates dwell which happen to be very nearby (houses off the roads).

In short, while the Lechmere map does seem to indicate an affinity with JtRs crime scenes somehow, the answer to showing why Lechmere isn't JtR, is to go out and spend time working on just finding people in general who also took these routes like Lechmere. I think it is researching Lechmere alone that biases the view, whereas if large groups of working class people aren't even remotely coming close to Lechmere's pathways, in a population study, then that may bolster the Lechmere claim to causation, but I suspect such a study will reveal many potential Lechmere's witnesses all over Whitechapel that took these same routes or ones bypassing all these sights of interest.

Basically, a sample of one needs to be contrasted with a sample of many. That's all.
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Last edited by Batman : 10-21-2018 at 01:05 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:09 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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What a load of pony.
So if the killer was NOT Lechmere, then he did not kill in the areas we know that Lechmere is tied to?

Gareth, if you are going to comment the way you do here, you are going to need to explain WHY it is suppsedly a "load of pony".

Lechmere´s working trek passed through the area between Hanbury Street and Old Montague Street, and we can´t tell which road he used, because there are opportunities that are of the same approxiamate length and time consumption.

Four victims were killed here, three of the C5 and Tabram.

The two other victims were killed in close proximity to Lechmere´s mothers house or more or less along his old working route from James Street to Broad Street.

These are not equestrian matters, they are facts.

So whichever way we look upon it, the Phantom killer (a I like to call hoim and as you like not to call him) murdered in areas that are tied to Lechmere.

You often speak of how small the murder area is. But once we work from the idea with an unidentified killer, the POSSIBLE murder area for such a man is anything but small. He could have killed anywhere in London (and beyond, for that matter) - but he just happens to kill only in spots that Charles Lechmere has been tied to. And the women killed in the Hanbury Street/Old MOntague Street area are not only killed in the area Lechmere passed en route to work, they are also killed at the approximate times he did so.

You don´t like it, I can understand that. But what can you do about it? Nothing.

The baffling "coincidence" remains, no matter how many ponys you bring on the stage.
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  #19  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:16 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Elamarna: Start with the easy one Christer, if it were Aaron, killing Stride at Berner street, is nothing to do with fitting up poor old Charlie, its simply close to where he in all probability lived.
While we don't know his exact address during the Autumn of 1888, it appears he lived mostly with his famly, and they surround Berner Street, being in Greenfield and Yarford streets to the North, Providence to the South. oh and 38 Berner street a few years earlier.

A little closer tham mother Lechmere.

Yes, agreed - of all the murders, the Berner Street murder is the one that is easiest to pin on Kosminski, geographically speaking. However, while we KNOW that Lechmere lived in Doveton Street, we can only reason that Kosminski may have lived where you suggest.

Of course with Charlie having only just moved from the same general area, there must be a chance they knew each other by sight. maybe they talked and swapped stories.

Also agreed - they may have seen each other, and Kosminski will have stood out, at least at times.

The others I will get back to you probably tomorrow, obviously I am still writing references, so am trying to split mytime between that and posting here.

Sounds good - but prepare yourself for not being able to come as close to the mark as Lechmere did. Not only must you produce a credible agenda for why Kosminski would have traversed the Hanbury/Old Montague Street area, you must also explain why he would do so at the approximate same time as Lechmere trekked to Broad Street, and you must have as good an explanation for where the rag in Goulston Street was found as I have when it comes to Lechmere. Was it in a direct line from Mitre square to Providence Road...?

You will fall short, and I think we both know that. The question is how short.


Steve[/quote]
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  #20  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:19 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
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How does Eddowes bloody apron piece figure into this?
It fits with the logical movements of Lechmere if he was the killer, regardless if he returned direct to Doveton Street from Mitre Square or if he came from Broad Street after having deposited the innards from Eddowes there. As you may be aware, Alfred Long tells us that the killer did not arrive in Goulston Street as early as some will have it.
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