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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #1  
Old 10-21-2018, 06:10 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Default Did Jack leave his fingerprints on Mary Jane Kelly?

I think JtR left his fingerprints on MJK's right lower leg.

Here is a close up. Warning Graphic.

Full photo (very graphic) of MJKs body is here.

Looks like he was holding her lower right leg as he was cutting into her right thigh.

I wonder if it can tell us which hand he was holding her leg with so we know which hand he wields his knife with.

Also the large open wound (under the 'fingerprints) looks like this maybe where he was digging his thumb in. The flesh seems pushed down.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:16 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Looks like he was holding her lower right leg as he was cutting into her right thigh.
Possibly, although he might just have grasped her calf when he was spreading her legs apart; it needn't be the case that he was cutting away at the same time.
Quote:
Also the large open wound (under the 'fingerprints) looks like this maybe where he was digging his thumb in. The flesh seems pushed down.
I don't think it's the result of a thumb being pushed into the flesh, which seems unlikely. However, I've long thought that she was still wearing a stocking and garter on that leg, with the "large open wound" being the blood from a cut leeching out under the pale fabric of the stocking. I can make out a dark, thin "slit" in the middle of the wound, where I think the knife might have punctured both stocking and skin. (That said, the "slit" might just be an artefact on the photograph.)

Edit: you'll find some posts of mine (under the name "Gareth W") in the Casebook archives from 2005, for which I've posted some links below. Look for the text with diagrams, which might help to understand where I'm coming from.

https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/20457.html

https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/20440.html
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-21-2018 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:45 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Possibly, although he might just have grasped her calf when he was spreading her legs apart; it needn't be the case that he was cutting away at the same time.
I don't think it's the result of a thumb being pushed into the flesh, which seems unlikely. However, I've long thought that she was still wearing a stocking and garter on that leg, with the "large open wound" being the blood from a cut leeching out under the pale fabric of the stocking.
It is a garter piece without the stocking because a wound like that would have most certainly been described. Also, the garter is slightly compressing her leg around that area. So it's a structure around her leg.

The gash is similar to the ones on her arms and face. You can see this in the two images I provided which seem better definition than the ones you referenced maybe? Notice where I hypothesized the thumb digging in, you can see a fold of skin on lower part of the cut which has been compressed downwards creating a thick lip. I think he held that right calf in a crushing grip while hacking downwards in a frenzy.

There is another angle of the same crime scene and the garter line is still fuzzy but clearly there.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rime_scene.jpg

You can also see the tips of Jack's fingerprints under it.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:51 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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It is a garter piece without the stocking because a wound like that would have most certainly been described.
If the killer had dug his thumb into her calf and gouged the flesh as you suggest, I think that might have been described too, yes?

That said, Kelly sustained a huge amount of damage, so it's conceivable that not every wound would have been described - particularly the peripheral ones - detailed though Bond's report was.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:54 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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The gash is similar to the ones on her arms and face. You can see this in the two images I provided which seem better definition than the ones you referenced maybe?
I'm familiar with higher-resolution images of the Kelly photographs than even the ones you used, but the ones I used are good enough for the purpose of this discussion.
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:51 AM
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The alternative angle picture, unfortunately, has so much abrasion on the lower half that it looks like a lot of the chemicals forming the image have been smudged in the area we are discussing. Pity.
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:18 PM
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The Bond report described the body as 'naked' in one instance and 'quite naked' in another .
Phillips was correct at the inquest .
Such a shame we haven't got the accurate report that phillips may have presented us with .
Therefore according to Bond .....that can not possibly be a garter
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
The Bond report described the body as 'naked' in one instance and 'quite naked' in another .
Phillips was correct at the inquest .
Such a shame we haven't got the accurate report that phillips may have presented us with .
Therefore according to Bond .....that can not possibly be a garter
Wearing just a garter piece I would think corresponds to quite naked. I doubt you would get away with just wearing that alone in public... but then again, that's just where I live.
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:52 PM
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Wearing just a garter piece I would think corresponds to quite naked. I doubt you would get away with just wearing that alone in public... but then again, that's just where I live.
To believe it's a garter you have to believe it to be a rough, badly frayed, seriously overtightened (as the more you zoom you will see a clear indentation ) of string and not a garter as such .
Point out the other one and I'll go with it 😉
But otherwise it's a wild guess based on nothing
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Old 10-21-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
To believe it's a garter you have to believe it to be a rough, badly frayed, seriously overtightened (as the more you zoom you will see a clear indentation ) of string and not a garter as such .
Point out the other one and I'll go with it 😉
But otherwise it's a wild guess based on nothing
Given a broken piece of mirror and sewing thread were considered prized items in Whitechapel among the unfortunates, owning one rough, badly frayed, seriously overtightened, garter piece was probably a valuable piece of fashion and owning two would have seen you thrown out of town for dressing like a snob.
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