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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

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  #11  
Old 10-20-2018, 06:06 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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I can't post links, because the information I have is in the form of hundreds of pages of court transcripts, all of which are available in the UK National Archive, for those who want to plough through them.

That aside, the timeline and trajectory for Klosowski's tenure in the East End I posted on the other thread make perfect logical sense in their own right. I'll sum up my argument here:

Resident in Poland until late 1887 or possibly early 1888
At West India Dock Rd from early 1888, poss. until Aug Bank Holiday (anecdotal evidence that this is when Radins held a party for a homesick K)
Moves to Cable Street in 1888 either during August or a little later
Definitely resident in Cable Street by late 1888 and through 1889 (verified by the PO Directory)
Marries Lucy Baderska Oct 1889, whilst still living at 126 Cable St (verified by marriage certificate)
The Klosowskis move to Commercial St for indeterminate period either late 1889 or sometime in 1890 (witness testimony at K's trial)
The Klosowskis set up a barber shop in the White Hart in 1890, sometime before September
Wladyslaw Klosowski born 5th September 1890 in the White Hart (verified by birth certificate)

Mostly, these dates and locations can be verified by data that are in the public domain; Kelly's Post Office Directory, marriage/birth certificates, newspaper/court reports etc.

It is obvious to me that the earliest we can place Klosowski in the White Hart is sometime in 1890, and that is ALL I'm going to say. If Klosowski fans want to play at inventing ingenious Ptolemaic epicycles to keep their man in the same orbit as Jack the Ripper, that's up to them.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-20-2018 at 06:18 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-20-2018, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I can't post links, because the information I have is in the form of hundreds of pages of court transcripts, all of which are available in the UK National Archive, for those who want to plough through them.
I even predicted you won't reference your own claims to having new facts which contradict what Natalie Severn said in this very thread. Now you are claiming that we have to go and support your claims by trawling through hundreds of documents that you won't even reference except to elephant dump a "national archive" on us.

The burden of proof is on you to support your claims, not us.

You can't just allude to an archive and then expect anyone just to accept that. That doesn't work in any form of criticism anywhere. You support your claims (if you call them facts) with proper referencing, or not at all.

Quote:
That aside, the timeline and trajectory for Klosowski's tenure in the East End I posted on the other thread make perfect logical sense in their own right. I'll sum up my argument here:

Resident in Poland until late 1887 or possibly early 1888
At West India Dock Rd from early 1888, poss. until Aug Bank Holiday (anecdotal evidence that this is when Radins held a party for a homesick K)...
Why are you talking about where he was living when clearly post #5 (which you claim is in error) disputes that Levisohn is claiming he lived there and is saying he was working there!

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost....75&postcount=5

That post confounds all your claims here.
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  #13  
Old 10-20-2018, 07:01 AM
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Default Post #5 broken down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
Levisohn"s statement that he remembered meeting Klosowski in 1888," when he was "working" in a shop under the White Hart Public House, 89 High Street,Whitechapel " in Adam"s book entitled ,"The Trial of George Chapman" is not contradicted anywhere in that book by anyone.
This should put to rest claims that Levisohn was talking about Chapman living in White Hart Public House. He clearly says working. Got evidence he said something else? Reference it.

Quote:
I have searched through this book several times trying to find remarks by anyone that contradict this specific statement and have not found any,either by Stanislaus Baderski or Mrs Stanislaus Rauch or by George Sterman,a travelling salesman for hairdressing products.
This points out that there is no contradiction between Levisohn and Baderski. There is probably not a contradiction with Schumann either. They can all be right about where he lived and worked in those years.

Quote:
In the case of the first two there would have been no reason for them to have known Klosowski in 1888 as their relative Lucy,who married him,did not herself meet him until the August of 1889,when he was living at 126 Cable Street and her relatives did not meet him until a little later around the time they married in October 1889.

Mrs Baderski stated at court that she met him in a public house in the Whitechapel Road and that " I came over 13 years ago and at the time my sister was already married".So as I said ,there would have been no reason for her to know Klosowski in 1888.
This rules out Lucy and her relatives knowing Chapman before August of 1889.


Quote:
In the case of George Sterman,he said that he too had met him in the barber"s shop under the White Hart Public House in High Street ,Whitechapel.He said he knew The White Hart from about 13 years ago when IT WAS KEPT by a man with a name like "Klosowski".What Sterman does not say is that he knew either Chapman/Klosowski or the White Hart before 13 years ago.
Stermann's claims do not contradict Levisohn.

Quote:
Moreover Wolf,we dont know that Abberline had only got his information "from newspapers".We dont know that at all.Indeed it seems to me to be highly unlikely that this was the case.What seems most likely is that after having such a crucial role in the ripper investigation, Abberline would have been anxious to discuss such a dramatic new development as this Chapman trial with his ex colleague Inspector Godley who had arrested Klosowski/Chapman and had worked under Abberline on the Ripper investigation. Undoubtedly Abberline would have retained contact with several of the police colleagues from the Ripper Investigation.But Godley appears to be the most obvious contact he would have had as Godley had himself worked on the Nichols murder when he was a young detective sergeant ,and Godley"s name later appeared on several pieces of ripper evidence.
That completely destroys the idea that Chapman is working in a vacuum of just journalist information. He would have known Godley very well.


Quote:
6. He worked (and possibly lived) at George Yard when Mrs Tabram was murdered there
- WOJTCZAK, HELENA. Jack the Ripper at Last? The Mysterious Murders of George Chapman.
In this part of her book Wojtczak dismisses Levisohn, but obviously her reasons for doing so are incorrect in that she presents a false dichotomy that Levisohn is contradicting other witnesses here. He isn't at all and this was established even as far back as 2008 on Casebook, here.
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Last edited by Batman : 10-20-2018 at 07:04 AM.
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  #14  
Old 10-24-2018, 11:34 AM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
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Hello everyone.

I'm not going to comment on the meat of the arguments here because I have said everything in my book.

I've just popped in to register my dismay at seeing the names and spellings that were established after a great deal of painstaking research on my part being misspelled on this thread.

"Stanislaus" is not a Polish name and it's not a female name, either.

Lucy Baderska's siblings were Stanisław Baderski and Stanisława Rauch (nee Baderska). I also see reference to a Mrs Baderska. The only Mrs Baderska was Stanisław Baderski's wife, Władysława. Is that the person who is being cited?

There is nobody in this story called "George Sterman". The barber who worked with Kłosowski was George Schumann.

There is nobody in this story called "Haddin". The barber in Tottenham that Kłosowski worked for was John Haddon.

All this information is available in the biographical index at the end of my book.

Thank you all very much for resurrecting my pet suspect and I look forward to a flurry of book orders in due course ;-)

The book is currently in its 4th imprint, having been updated with 20 extra pages (mainly of Kłosowski's family history) in 2017, and now totals 292 pages.

All the best to you all and keep up the excellent "ripperologing"!

Helena
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Last edited by HelenaWojtczak : 10-24-2018 at 11:44 AM.
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  #15  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:00 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
In this part of her book Wojtczak dismisses Levisohn, but obviously her reasons for doing so are incorrect in that she presents a false dichotomy that Levisohn is contradicting other witnesses here.
Levisohn is clearly wrong on his dates, because we know that Kłosowski spent several (five?) months in 1888 in West India Dock Road, working in Abraham Radin's shop and nursing Ethel's child there. He then moved to Cable Street, thence to Commercial Street via Greenfield Street, before moving into the basement of the White Hart sometime in 1890. This trajectory makes eminent logical sense on its own - start out east near the docks where you landed, move gradually further west and then end up in the heart (or Hart) of Whitechapel eventually - and is based on the testimony of several witnesses, all of whom were either related (by marriage) to Kłosowski, and/or worked or lived with him on an almost daily basis.

The ONLY one that doesn't agree with this eminently logical, and independently attested, timeline is Wolf Levisohn, who'd only have seen Kłosowski periodically in his capacity as a salesman of hairdressing supplies. I'll take the word of relatives and close colleagues over those of an occasionally visiting salesman anyday.
Quote:
and this was established even as far back as 2008 on Casebook, here.
"Far back in 2008", people were largely regurgitating stuff that had been in print for decades in the form of HL Adam's book on Chapman's trial. Much more is known about Kłosowski now, and a number of errors reproduced in Adam's book and other sources have been identified and corrected.
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  #16  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Levisohn is clearly wrong on his dates, because we know that Kłosowski spent several (five?) months in 1888 in West India Dock Road, working in Abraham Radin's shop and nursing Ethel's child there. He then moved to Cable Street, thence to Commercial Street via Greenfield Street, before moving into the basement of the White Hart sometime in 1890.
Levisohn said "working".

This was pointed out in 2008 to you and I repeated it above. Look...

Quote:
Levisohn"s statement that he remembered meeting Klosowski in 1888," when he was "working" in a shop under the White Hart Public House, 89 High Street,Whitechapel " in Adam"s book entitled ,"The Trial of George Chapman" is not contradicted anywhere in that book by anyone.
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  #17  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:20 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Levisohn said "working".

This was pointed out in 2008 to you and I repeated it above. Look...
I'm aware it was pointed out in 2008, because I was here having the bloody discussion. I'm also aware that the person pointing it out was a bit of a Kłosowski fan at the time, a bit like you seem to be turning into. Like you're a fan of Smith and Tabram being included in the canon, a fan of the idea that the Ripper must have had insider info, etc.

I won't waste any time on your idées fixe and frankly irritating posts again.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-24-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-24-2018, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm aware it was pointed out in 2008, because I was here having the bloody discussion. I'm also aware that the person pointing it out was a bit of a Kłosowski fan at the time, a bit like you seem to be turning into. Like you're a fan of Smith and Tabram being included in the canon, a fan of the idea that the Ripper must have had insider info, etc.

I won't waste any time on your idées fixe and frankly irritating posts again.
Levisohn said "working".

You keep misrepresenting his claim to mean residence.
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  #19  
Old 10-24-2018, 02:05 PM
Wolf Vanderlinden Wolf Vanderlinden is offline
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Quote:
Levisohn"s statement that he remembered meeting Klosowski in 1888," when he was "working" in a shop under the White Hart Public House, 89 High Street,Whitechapel " in Adam"s book entitled ,"The Trial of George Chapman" is not contradicted anywhere in that book by anyone.
Quote:
This should put to rest claims that Levisohn was talking about Chapman living in White Hart Public House. He clearly says working. Got evidence he said something else? Reference it.
Actually, according to Adam's book Levisohn states at Klosowski's trial "I have known the accused since 1888, when I met him in a hairdresser's shop in Whitechapel" (page 62). At the Police Court proceedings it states "He first met the accused in a shop under the White Hart public-house, 89 High Street, Whitechapel, in 1888" (page 201). It doesn't say "working," clearly or otherwise.

Levisohn also states "Until 1889 the accused was an assistant to a hairdresser at this shop. Then he became proprietor." As I pointed out, this never happened.

Wolf.
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  #20  
Old 10-24-2018, 02:41 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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So chapman was living in cable street during the ripper murders or not?
If so, how far from murder sites is it?
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