Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Batman 31 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by harry 47 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Batman 3 hours ago.
Scene of the Crimes: The Nihilist Club ie. Berner Street - by MrBarnett 3 hours ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Michael W Richards 3 hours ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Michael W Richards 3 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (39 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - (6 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (4 posts)
General Discussion: Ripper was several people... - (3 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: The Nihilist Club ie. Berner Street - (1 posts)
General Discussion: Eddowes' Shawl - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41  
Old 10-19-2018, 02:46 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,169
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
It's interesting how many people who believe in coincidences now need this geographic profile to be yet another coincidence.
Just for the record. I'm one of those who isn't fazed by coincidences, but I don't dismiss this "heatmap" - on the contrary, I think it gives a useful indicator of where the Ripper may have lived. What I am saying, however, is that the heatmap can't be used to pin Tabram's (or Smith's) death on Jack the Ripper simply on grounds of proximity.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-19-2018, 03:11 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Just for the record. I'm one of those who isn't fazed by coincidences, but I don't dismiss this "heatmap" - on the contrary, I think it gives a useful indicator of where the Ripper may have lived. What I am saying, however, is that the heatmap can't be used to pin Tabram's (or Smith's) death on Jack the Ripper simply on grounds of proximity.
I think even if Tabram had been beaten to death with a broken wooden pallet piece she meets the right victimology for JtR. Put the photo of the dead Martha Tabram next to the dead Anne Chapman. I wonder how many people mistook Tabram for an Anne Chapman photo.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-19-2018, 03:32 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
I think even if Tabram had been beaten to death with a broken wooden pallet piece she meets the right victimology for JtR. Put the photo of the dead Martha Tabram next to the dead Anne Chapman. I wonder how many people mistook Tabram for an Anne Chapman photo.
For different reasons (I'm not familiar enough with geoprofiling to have a view of its efficacy) I too believe Martha Tabram was the first (or at least early) victim. They include timing of the murder, victim profile, the manner in which the body was left, the same type of weapon, nature of the attack etc... I also find the resemblance striking with the victims, with the exception of MJK, especially Martha and Anne.

Sam and I have debated Martha Tabram as a victim of JTR in another thread. I understand his significant argument against classifying Tabram as a JTR victim to be that the attack MO was different (over simplified but stabbing instead of slicing with a different knife than the other murders). I think it was the start of a learning process and we see evolution through the murders. I feel the balance of all the reasons to believe Martha was a JTR victim massively outweigh the reason that might cause doubt.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-19-2018, 03:36 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
You're joking, right? I don't wish to dampen your efforts, but for the sake of reality:

At the time of the DC sniper case, profiler after profiler appeared on cable news, spouting all the usual hype, stating the killer would be a local white guy driving a white van who must have had an intimate knowledge of the DC Beltway area...probably a local delivery driver.


In reality, the actual killers (plural) turned out to be two black dudes, recently from TACOMA WASHINGTON (that's the other side of the continent). They were entirely mobile, living out of their blue sedan and were captured due to a tip from Robert Holmes (of Tacoma) who had seen Muhammad and Malvo back in Washington State, practicing shooting their bushmaster with a silencer and saying how easy it would be to launch an urban attack. This set the police looking for Muhammad, and his car was eventually spotted while the two men were sleeping in a rest area off a freeway exit in Maryland by a guy named Whitney Donohue. He tipped the police, who checked it out, and secured the arrest. Case closed.

Holmes and Donohue shared the $500,000 reward for the capture of Muhammad and Malvo.

"Geographical Profiling" had no bearing on the outcome of the case, and would have been utterly worthless considering the two supsects were from the other side of the country and entirely mobile.

Why do you state that Keppel and his methods solved this case? In truth, I would think the DC sniper case is one of the better examples of why Geographical profiling might, in the end, be utterly worthless if the suspects were from outside the area.

Similarly, in the case of Pickton, the pig farmer from Vancouver, BC., he picked up all his prostitute victims in the same tiny redlight district in downtown Vancouver, but lived some 20 miles away. Please show me how a geographical profile would have proved useful in the case.

Pickton was arrested when a rookie 'mountie' searched his pig farm during a weapons violation charge; she discovered some items belonging to a missing woman. Years earlier, Pickton had been arrested for abducting and brutalizing a "sex worker" who had escaped from his farm, but, unbelievably, the government didn't prosecute him.

At the time Kim Rossomo (not Keppel) was working in Vancouver. He had earlier pushed for the idea that this spate of missing women from downtown Vancouver might be the work of a serial killer. He was ignored by his fellow officers, and no "geographical profile," to my knowledge, was ever written-up, and could hardly have been useful in pointing to a pig farm some 20 miles distance from the neighborhood from where the women were abducted.

If anything, these two cases show the possibility of a killer living miles away. To state that these cases were solved by geographical profiling is entirely unwarranted.
Excellent post, and you have confirmed what I had already told Batman as to the viability of using profiling, Geo or criminal.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:03 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
For different reasons (I'm not familiar enough with geoprofiling to have a view of its efficacy) I too believe Martha Tabram was the first (or at least early) victim. They include timing of the murder, victim profile, the manner in which the body was left, the same type of weapon, nature of the attack etc... I also find the resemblance striking with the victims, with the exception of MJK, especially Martha and Anne.

Sam and I have debated Martha Tabram as a victim of JTR in another thread. I understand his significant argument against classifying Tabram as a JTR victim to be that the attack MO was different (over simplified but stabbing instead of slicing with a different knife than the other murders). I think it was the start of a learning process and we see evolution through the murders. I feel the balance of all the reasons to believe Martha was a JTR victim massively outweigh the reason that might cause doubt.
She was even considered a ripper victim by the press in relation to the Nichols murder. Seems she was forgotten about after Chapman.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:50 PM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is online now
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,590
Default

Good evening Batman,

Quote:
... the C5 should be a C6 and Tabram included.
Then you could run the geoprofile again with Tabram. Do all six in the template.

Roy
__________________
Sink the Bismark
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:50 PM
DJA DJA is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Some Australian Mountain Range.
Posts: 1,647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
You're joking, right? I don't wish to dampen your efforts, but for the sake of reality:

At the time of the DC sniper case, profiler after profiler appeared on cable news, spouting all the usual hype, stating the killer would be a local white guy driving a white van who must have had an intimate knowledge of the DC Beltway area...probably a local delivery driver.


In reality, the actual killers (plural) turned out to be two black dudes, recently from TACOMA WASHINGTON (that's the other side of the continent). They were entirely mobile, living out of their blue sedan and were captured due to a tip from Robert Holmes (of Tacoma) who had seen Muhammad and Malvo back in Washington State, practicing shooting their bushmaster with a silencer and saying how easy it would be to launch an urban attack. This set the police looking for Muhammad, and his car was eventually spotted while the two men were sleeping in a rest area off a freeway exit in Maryland by a guy named Whitney Donohue. He tipped the police, who checked it out, and secured the arrest. Case closed.

Holmes and Donohue shared the $500,000 reward for the capture of Muhammad and Malvo.

"Geographical Profiling" had no bearing on the outcome of the case, and would have been utterly worthless considering the two supsects were from the other side of the country and entirely mobile.

Why do you state that Keppel and his methods solved this case? In truth, I would think the DC sniper case is one of the better examples of why Geographical profiling might, in the end, be utterly worthless if the suspects were from outside the area.

Similarly, in the case of Pickton, the pig farmer from Vancouver, BC., he picked up all his prostitute victims in the same tiny redlight district in downtown Vancouver, but lived some 20 miles away. Please show me how a geographical profile would have proved useful in the case.

Pickton was arrested when a rookie 'mountie' searched his pig farm during a weapons violation charge; she discovered some items belonging to a missing woman. Years earlier, Pickton had been arrested for abducting and brutalizing a "sex worker" who had escaped from his farm, but, unbelievably, the government didn't prosecute him.

At the time Kim Rossomo (not Keppel) was working in Vancouver. He had earlier pushed for the idea that this spate of missing women from downtown Vancouver might be the work of a serial killer. He was ignored by his fellow officers, and no "geographical profile," to my knowledge, was ever written-up, and could hardly have been useful in pointing to a pig farm some 20 miles distance from the neighborhood from where the women were abducted.

If anything, these two cases show the possibility of a killer living miles away. To state that these cases were solved by geographical profiling is entirely unwarranted.
Gary Ridgway was caught through DNA analysis from April 7, 1987 hair and saliva samples along with Kenwood truck paint.

Nothing to do with Geoprofiling.
__________________
My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:51 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
She was even considered a ripper victim by the press in relation to the Nichols murder. Seems she was forgotten about after Chapman.
The later murders were more sensational as the murderer became progressively more savage in his attacks. It is perhaps unsurprising that a sensationalist press focused on those.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:56 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Corduroy View Post
Good evening Batman,



Then you could run the geoprofile again with Tabram. Do all six in the template.

Roy
Yes I was thinking about that.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:59 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,593
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJA View Post
Gary Ridgway was caught through DNA analysis from April 7, 1987 hair and saliva samples along with Kenwood truck paint.

Nothing to do with Geoprofiling.
The Gary Ridgway reference was for HITS for Keppel who was actually on the Green River Task Force that finally arrested Ridgway. Trevor wasn't just dismissing geographic profiling but Keppel's entire career.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.