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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

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  #641  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:33 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Gassing is not archetypical poisoning, though. Any confirmed examples of that process?
Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their MO. - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their signature - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
Q. Show me a serial killer that also poisoned. - H.H.Holmes
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that also poisoned. - H.H.Holmes
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that transformed into a poisoner later. - Well technically H.H.Holmes did that.
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that transformed into an archetypical poisoner later. - well...

Well, that goal post has been for quite a walk around the place hasn't it? Are you sure there are no more strings attached?

Let's say I haven't found one yet.

How exactly does that interfere with the fact that if JtR had a partner he wanted to murder, the least likely way he would do it is by ripping which would only identify him as the ripper. So what method would he use that would be hard to detect and not identify him as the ripper?
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  #642  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:36 AM
John G John G is offline
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Because saying something never happened is a claim that requires evidence to support it. You shifted the burden of proof onto yourself instead of asking for evidence for what happened. Once you do that in any logical discussion it's a bad move because now you have to 'prove your client innocent' instead of us 'proving he is guilty'.

... and knowledge of the crimes not reported anywhere.

Sure handwriting analysis is subjective in part, but that is why he included facts only he knew along with posting them evidence.

His MO changes were so significant and even you believe they aren't linked.

Which proves my point. That's why he was including evidence and writing stuff for investigators to read. He wanted them linked.
But why should I have a source for something that never happened? In fact, I could go further. Where is there an example of a mutilator transforming into a slow poisoner? And Holmes clearly wasn't a slow poisoner.

And I'm not being pedantic. JtR clearly required immediate satisfaction, which is why he presumably took such great risks. Conversely, Chapman presumably gained satisfaction from watching his wives, to quote Abberline, "being slowly tortured to death by poison." This is, of course, indicative of two very different types of personality.

Now, in respect of the uniqueness argument, I've already given an example of a serial poisoner operating in the same time period, and same geographical area, as a violent serial killer who mutilated. Here's another example.

John Sweeney and Anthony Hardy (known as The Camden Ripper), both committed violent murders in Camden, a small district of London. And They operated over the same time period and had similar MOs

Thus, Sweeney murdered two lovers, dumping their severed bodies in canals. Hardy, who may have killed up to nine people, dismembered some of his victims. Incredibly, Hardy lived just a few hundred yards from where one of Sweeney's victims was found.

These coincidences were so remarkable that Sweeney's defence lawyers auggested, unsuccessfully, that Hardy may have been responsible for the aforementioned murder: http://archive.camdennewjournal.com/...-camden-ripper
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  #643  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:43 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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And I'm not being pedantic. JtR clearly required immediate satisfaction, which is why he presumably took such great risks. Conversely, Chapman presumably gained satisfaction from watching his wives, to quote Abberline, "being slowly tortured to death by poison." This is, of course, indicative of two very different types of personality.
The only reason we are here again is that you won't address the fact that JtR (irrespective of whoever he is) would not rip a partner to get rid of her. That should have been obvious from the start, yet here you are saying how he wouldn't poison anyone. Yet poisoning would have to be at least one the very methods considered by a JtR type character to get rid off a spouse that would attract the least attention and certainly not suspicion he is JtR (which you are some others here are evidence for!).

Quote:
Now, in respect of the uniqueness argument, I've already given an example of a serial poisoner operating in the same time period, and same geographical area, as a violent serial killer who mutilated. Here's another example.
I also demonstrated how your Shipman example has totally different demographics. Millions of people vs tens of thousands and 9km^2 vs 400km^2. No comparison.

Quote:
John Sweeney and Anthony Hardy (known as The Camden Ripper), both committed violent murders in Camden, a small district of London. And They operated over the same time period and had similar MOs

Thus, Sweeney murdered two lovers, dumping their severed bodies in canals. Hardy, who may have killed up to nine people, dismembered some of his victims. Incredibly, Hardy lived just a few hundred yards from where one of Sweeney's victims was found.

These coincidences were so remarkable that Sweeney's defence lawyers auggested, unsuccessfully, that Hardy may have been responsible for the aforementioned murder: http://archive.camdennewjournal.com/...-camden-ripper
Without looking I'll let you do the demographics because that is what we need to access your point. Area size and population sizes please and timeframe.
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  #644  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:45 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Well, if you held a gun to my head, I'd probably go with Joseph Flem(m)ing, although the case against him is by no means solid. That said, I find him more compelling than the others because he was a native East Ender, aged nearly 30 in 1888, and was probably well-built as he was a dock labourer. He was an ex-lover of Kelly who was apparently still visiting after their relationship had ended, was said to have ill-used her on some of those visits. He became insane and was committed to an asylum under an alias in 1892, where he didn't like people asking him questions, and had delusions that he was being pursued by men who wanted to kill him. However, there's some question about his height - he was listed as 6' 7", which is extremely tall even by today's standards. It's possible that this one entry was a misprint for 5' 7", which seems more reasonable but, if not, he'd have made a very conspicuous Ripper!

Do I think he was the Ripper? No. However, the question of his height notwithstanding, he has much more going for him than most.
Thanks Sam
yeah ive got flemming on my second tier of least weak candidates. not if he was 6, 7* though.


Theres also some who have posited that he was hutch, but I guess that's for another thread.
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  #645  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:57 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
But why should I have a source for something that never happened? In fact, I could go further. Where is there an example of a mutilator transforming into a slow poisoner? And Holmes clearly wasn't a slow poisoner.

And I'm not being pedantic. JtR clearly required immediate satisfaction, which is why he presumably took such great risks. Conversely, Chapman presumably gained satisfaction from watching his wives, to quote Abberline, "being slowly tortured to death by poison." This is, of course, indicative of two very different types of personality.

Now, in respect of the uniqueness argument, I've already given an example of a serial poisoner operating in the same time period, and same geographical area, as a violent serial killer who mutilated. Here's another example.

John Sweeney and Anthony Hardy (known as The Camden Ripper), both committed violent murders in Camden, a small district of London. And They operated over the same time period and had similar MOs

Thus, Sweeney murdered two lovers, dumping their severed bodies in canals. Hardy, who may have killed up to nine people, dismembered some of his victims. Incredibly, Hardy lived just a few hundred yards from where one of Sweeney's victims was found.

These coincidences were so remarkable that Sweeney's defence lawyers auggested, unsuccessfully, that Hardy may have been responsible for the aforementioned murder: http://archive.camdennewjournal.com/...-camden-ripper
Hi JohnG
but what if the motive was different?

kemper killed his grandparents with a shot gun, later strangling and stabbing victims, raping them, and post mortem mutilation and necrophilia.

William suff beat his 2 month old daughter to death, later becoming another post mortem serial killer like kemper.


totally different reasons for killing, different victimology-hence different method.
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #646  
Old 10-18-2018, 05:58 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their MO. - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their signature - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
BTK changed neither signature nor MO; I don't count harassing dog-owners as a "change in MO", unless he ended up killing those dog-owners. Likewise, I don't see the issuing of a dog-nuisance notice as a "change in signature" from tying someone up and killing them.

DeAngelo escalated from one type of crime to another. You can't really compare an MO/signature for burglary with an MO/signature for murder; they're different things.

Zodiac may have stabbed (on occasion), but he still crept up on people and committed violent, bloody murders, regardless of which weapon he chose.
Quote:
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that also poisoned. - H.H.Holmes
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that transformed into a poisoner later. - Well technically H.H.Holmes did that.
Holmes wasn't a serial mutilator; he defleshed/disarticulated his victims to sell off their skeletons or simply to get rid of them. Chloroforming someone before setting them on fire can hardly be construed as "poisoning", and it's also debatable whether gassing someone is really the same as administering poison. Either way, Holmes sought a quick resolution, and didn't wait weeks or months for his victims to succumb.
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  #647  
Old 10-18-2018, 06:03 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Theres also some who have posited that he was hutch, but I guess that's for another thread.
Hutch, like Kłosowski, was too young to match the majority of witness descriptions.
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  #648  
Old 10-18-2018, 06:15 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hutch, like Kłosowski, was too young to match the majority of witness descriptions.
not if he looked older than his years. and or if his job/life also contributed.
age is also notoriously hard to get right by witnesses anyway, especially since none got a great look at him and in the dark.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #649  
Old 10-18-2018, 06:24 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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not if he looked older than his years. and or if his job/life also contributed.
Even back then, a 22 year old, barely out of adolescence, would have looked young enough in any light. He certainly wouldn't have resembled someone in his 30s.
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  #650  
Old 10-18-2018, 06:27 AM
J6123 J6123 is offline
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Well ive often said theyre all weak, some just less weak than others.lol.

Who do you think are/ is one of the least weak?
I would say they are all pretty weak, except for the Polish Jew suspected by high ranking police officials, that might have been Aaron Kosminski, or might have been David Cohen (both seem like the type of geezers who would have committed murders of the nature that the Ripper did). If you can just entertain the possibility that Anderson and Swanson might not have been talking rubbish. For Anderson to have said what he said, you would imagine they must have had something on him that went beyond him being 'jewish' and mental'.

I thought it was pretty obvious why Chapman couldn't have been the Ripper. It's already been explained. We have a largely disorganised lust murderer who rips 5 prostitutes to pieces over just a few months. Then he decides to be a good boy for the next 10 years. Then he resumes as a calculated poisoner of women that he was in relationships with? Think about it.

Last edited by J6123 : 10-18-2018 at 06:38 AM.
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