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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #51  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:21 PM
Damaso Marte Damaso Marte is offline
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We've had the military theory posted before, and I think it was shown that submission and chokeholds were not part of military training until after the Ripper killings.

The conclusions I draw is that the Ripper was very risk-tolerant, and also that the Ripper was likely sane, in the traditional criminal law sense of the term. The Ripper clearly took great effort to evade detection, which told me he knew that what he was doing was considered wrong. Thus I don't think that he was, for example, a horse-slaughterer operating under the delusion that Nichols was a horse. (As has been proposed on this forum before)
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  #52  
Old 10-17-2018, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damaso Marte View Post
We've had the military theory posted before, and I think it was shown that submission and chokeholds were not part of military training until after the Ripper killings.

The conclusions I draw is that the Ripper was very risk-tolerant, and also that the Ripper was likely sane, in the traditional criminal law sense of the term. The Ripper clearly took great effort to evade detection, which told me he knew that what he was doing was considered wrong. Thus I don't think that he was, for example, a horse-slaughterer operating under the delusion that Nichols was a horse. (As has been proposed on this forum before)
We actually know somewhat how he attacked. It was a frontal attack to push them down on their backs by attacking their upper front area of the head and shoulders (front facial bruising, front collar area bruising). Immediately upon contact with the ground he was on top of them and slicing their throats in that position (no blood down their front meaning prostrate). It very much isn't too far off what Schwartz described. A frontal blitz.

I would be surprised that bayonet close quarter combat attacks in Victorian times were not also trained with tripping up your foe and then quickly stabbing them. What about the police? Did they have such training? All JtR had to do was put his foot behind theirs during a frontal assault and they will go over like a sack of potatoes.
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  #53  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:20 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Plenty of other killers have succeeded in quickly overcoming their victims with no police or military training.
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:26 AM
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Plenty of other killers have succeeded in quickly overcoming their victims with no police or military training.
We are talking about silently at night, in the middle of a major city, with bobbies on beat going around. He had to be guaranteed not a peep out of her would be made. That means experience. Which points to professionalism.
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  #55  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:27 AM
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Never been a soldier but I'd be amazed if the army trained people to trip up the enemy before bayoneting him. While you were tripping him up - what was the enemy going to be doing?
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  #56  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:48 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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We are talking about silently at night, in the middle of a major city, with bobbies on beat going around. He had to be guaranteed not a peep out of her would be made.
Not every "peep" was going to attract attention and, even if a scream was heard, it could be overlooked, as we know from some of the witness statements. Furthermore, it's not axiomatic that all the victims would have cried out, either out of shock, because things happened so quickly or because the killer took active steps to stifle a cry.
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That means experience. Which points to professionalism.
It doesn't take a policeman's or a soldier's training to throttle or clamp a firm hand on a victim's mouth. Nor, for that matter, to con her that they'd come to no harm if they cooperated - one of the oldest tricks in the book.

And, let's not forget, if the consensus of witness descriptions is to be believed, we're mostly dealing with a robust man in his 30s overpowering small, vulnerable women who weren't exactly in their prime in terms of age, nourishment or health. The only instance where this was not the case (Kelly) seems indeed to have produced a scream that was noted, albeit ignored, by those around her.
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:58 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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I may be misremembering, but I think MJK was the only one who had defensive wounds.
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:59 AM
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Never been a soldier but I'd be amazed if the army trained people to trip up the enemy before bayoneting him. While you were tripping him up - what was the enemy going to be doing?
I think they are talking hand to hand combat. The WWII CQC was developed from WWI analysis of hand to hand when some soldiers didn't have anything more than a shovel and their helmet. So those that survived set the record on what they did and this went into WWII stuff. I believe it was Fairbairn who developed a lot of this stuff plus his own policing experiences.

Before all that, Victorian police must have learned some things beyond battering a person with a club like in the cartoons. Asia was well opened up by this stage and pseudo-material arts had already somewhat entered into the culture, but exploded in the late 1890s with bar-fighting mix martial arts. UFC before UFC.

Police/Military hand to hand combat would be the same stuff I would think and wouldn't many police officers have served in the military.
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  #59  
Old 10-18-2018, 03:01 AM
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It doesn't take a policeman's or a soldier's training to throttle or clamp a firm hand on a victim's mouth.
Is JtR experienced or not with subduing people or was this the first time he attempted such things?

If experienced, how?
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  #60  
Old 10-18-2018, 03:07 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Is JtR experienced or not with subduing people or was this the first time he attempted such things?

If experienced, how?
Anyone could do it, for God's sake.
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