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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #41  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:13 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
I might have misunderstood this post. Are you suggesting that JtR was in the habit of wandering through Whitechapel with copious amounts of tarpaulin strapped to his back?
Is it not interesting that when Lechmere saw something lying in the street his first thought was that it was a tarpaulin? Was that perhaps something he had encountered on Bucks Row before on his walk into work - something he almost expected to see perhaps?
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Last edited by Bridewell : 10-17-2018 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Add final phrase
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  #42  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:32 PM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi John,

I'm not suggesting anything other than how the murder might have taken place in Winthrop Street and the body be subsequently moved to Bucks Row without leaving a suspicious blood trail.

Of course, if that was what happened, then the finger of suspicion would point to the slaughtermen.

Gary
Hi Gary,

Okay, I suppose it's theoretically possible. However, it doesn't seem very likely to me. Of course, if the killer had a pony and cart that would be an entirely different matter. Wait a minute...William Bury possesed a pony and cart.

Sorry, couldn't resist!
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  #43  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:33 PM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Is it not interesting that when Lechmere saw something lying in the street his first thought was that it was a tarpaulin? Was that perhaps something he had encountered on Bucks Row before on his walk into work - something he almost expected to see perhaps?
It's theoretically possible, of course. However, that doesn't make it likely.
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  #44  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:35 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
My views on Llewellyn are very clear, and I have refered to them in todays long post. I think best summed up as did his best, but out of his depth.

His examinations were incomplete. not once but twice.
His comments are contary to medical science, and are not backed by the evidence which is available.


Of course he doesnt think his views trump mine, he is long dead.

steve
This man:

Dr Llewellyn maintained a surgery at 152 Whitechapel Road. The A-Z describes his qualifications as: “Matric. U. of London, 1869. Hon. Certif. in Obst., 1873. MRCS, 1874. LRCP (Lond.), 1876. Medical Officer to E and EC Districts, and City Mission."[2]

... is the one you describe as being "out of his depth". The evidence available has to be subjected to "interpretation" before anyone can arrive at the conslusion that it is wrongful. But thatīs the way things go in ripperology, Llewellyn and Killeen were "out of their depth" and Phillips was mistaken - if the medical evidence is not in line with your thinking, then dismiss it as wrong.

Because this could not be a case of YOU being out of YOUR depth, could it? Making jokes about how Llewellyn has no view to offer since he is dead does not obscure the fact that he has the upper hand on you on account of having seen the wounds and damage. With many years of experience, he made his call based on a REAL examination.

You donīt like it, and you have a "very clear view" about him.

Well, so have I.
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  #45  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:39 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi John,

I'm not suggesting anything other than how the murder might have taken place in Winthrop Street and the body be subsequently moved to Bucks Row without leaving a suspicious blood trail.

Of course, if that was what happened, then the finger of suspicion would point to the slaughtermen.

Gary
Considering how the other canonicals fell where they were attacked and killed, why would he feel inclined to carry Nichols around before dropping her where she was found...? Why would her murder be any different in that respect?
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  #46  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:46 PM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Considering how the other canonicals fell where they were attacked and killed, why would he feel inclined to carry Nichols around before dropping her where she was found...? Why would her murder be any different in that respect?
If he was a slaughterman and he killed her at his place of work, wouldn't he (they) want to move the body?

But I repeat, I'm not putting that forward as a theory, just suggesting that doing so wouldn't necessarily have left an incriminating trail of blood.

Last edited by MrBarnett : 10-17-2018 at 12:48 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:00 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
If he was a slaughterman and he killed her at his place of work, wouldn't he (they) want to move the body?

But I repeat, I'm not putting that forward as a theory, just suggesting that doing so wouldn't necessarily have left an incriminating trail of blood.
I find it a lot more likely that she fell where she was attacked, just as the police concluded. It would mean that the killer did not occasionally kill at his own work and it would put her on par with the others. A lot simpler, therefore. Not that things are always simple, and your argument that a slaughterman killer would be wise to discard of the victim is logical enough. Although if I was that killer slaughterman I may have chosen to put her outside Essex wharf instead of at my own doorstep...

Iīm fully aware that you are not presenting it as a theory, Gary!
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  #48  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:10 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
This man:

Dr Llewellyn maintained a surgery at 152 Whitechapel Road. The A-Z describes his qualifications as: “Matric. U. of London, 1869. Hon. Certif. in Obst., 1873. MRCS, 1874. LRCP (Lond.), 1876. Medical Officer to E and EC Districts, and City Mission."[2]

... is the one you describe as being "out of his depth". The evidence available has to be subjected to "interpretation" before anyone can arrive at the conslusion that it is wrongful. But thatīs the way things go in ripperology, Llewellyn and Killeen were "out of their depth" and Phillips was mistaken - if the medical evidence is not in line with your thinking, then dismiss it as wrong.

Because this could not be a case of YOU being out of YOUR depth, could it? Making jokes about how Llewellyn has no view to offer since he is dead does not obscure the fact that he has the upper hand on you on account of having seen the wounds and damage. With many years of experience, he made his call based on a REAL examination.

You donīt like it, and you have a "very clear view" about him.

Well, so have I.
The problem you have Christer and it is a problem, is that you are reluctent to acknowledge how medicine and science has advanced since 1888, and just how limited the knowledge and skill was.

The wish to hold Llewellyn and other medics in such high regard as you do is very touching and I fear misplaced.

The evidence, has indeed been intepreted, as you rightly say must be done. That you reject that interpretation, because it questions the Doctors, does not make it wrong.


There was no joke aimed at Llewellyn, the comment was aimed squarely at you for presuming to speak for him.

And of course actually he carried out 4 Examinations if you wish to be pricise:

A perfuctory one at the scene. in which he missed the abdominal wounds.

A more indepth examination of the abdomen wounds when called to the mortuary by Spratling.

A full post mortem, begining at around 10am on the 1st. When he apparently paid little attention to the clothing of Mary Ann Nichols.

And a further examination sometime later after questions from Baxter, for which he should have had the answers already, if the PM was full and complete.



Steve
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  #49  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:27 PM
Damaso Marte Damaso Marte is online now
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Originally Posted by barnflatwyngarde View Post
but it just bothers me as illogical that he chose to commit murder practically outside someones house.
A week later, the same killer would literally kill somebody outside MULTIPLE people's house! I don't think applying the logic of you, a presumed non-murderer, to the Ripper will get you anywhere.
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  #50  
Old 10-17-2018, 04:42 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Damaso Marte View Post
A week later, the same killer would literally kill somebody outside MULTIPLE people's house! I don't think applying the logic of you, a presumed non-murderer, to the Ripper will get you anywhere.
It is really a puzzle though the number of times JtR cornered himself. 29 Hanbury backyard. Eddowes in Mitre Sq. Mary Jane Kelly in Miller's Court. He knew he was going into a backyard, so he is aware of the constraints he is under. He stood into the Wentworth Buildings entrance way to dump the bloody apron. He was heard in Hanbury backyard with Chapman. There was a warehouse door open and a cleaner inside right next to where he murdered Eddowes. Stride's attack went wrong for him as he goes into a yard. MJK room had paper thin walls. A partition was up. JtR was hugely confident he could subdue a woman into not screaming. Almost like he was someone who spent time subduing people, which points at Military, Law Enforcement, and Robbers.
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