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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

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  #571  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:50 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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That was never contested, however whether such "extracurricular" crimes constitute a sublimation of a need to kill, or whether such activities are independent manifestations of a damaged personality, is a moot point. Rader strikes me as a complete knob, the type who could have "terrorised" people before, during and after the point at which he became BTK. Likewise Bundy, I seem to recall, was already committing petty crimes before he started killing.

Whether these non-homicidal crimes were substitutes for murder or not, the evidence that such killers change from committing one qualitatively different form of murder to another remains rather thin on the ground.
Since you have an immutable unchanging MO/Signature for serial killers. Let's put this to the test.

Are the non-canonical JtR victims, JtR victims or not?

What about the canonical ones? Are they all his victims or not?

IMO, both MO and Signature evolve and change. They are not static even in this case.

EARONS changed his signature from shooting his victims to bashing their heads in. He even changed signature when we was ONS.

Sunday, December 30, 1979
Offerman and Manning were shot in the head.

Tuesday, August 19, 1980
Keith & Patrice Harrington were bludgeoned to death.

Firearms to logs of wood and lamps.

ONS attacks were not even formally linked at the start, let alone formally linked to the EAR.
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  #572  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:06 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Since you have an immutable unchanging MO/Signature for serial killers. Let's put this to the test.

Are the non-canonical JtR victims, JtR victims or not?

What about the canonical ones? Are they all his victims or not?

IMO, both MO and Signature evolve and change. They are not static even in this case.

EARONS changed his signature from shooting his victims to bashing their heads in. He even changed signature when we was ONS.

Sunday, December 30, 1979
Offerman and Manning were shot in the head.

Tuesday, August 19, 1980
Keith & Patrice Harrington were bludgeoned to death.

Firearms to logs of wood and lamps.

ONS attacks were not even formally linked at the start, let alone formally linked to the EAR.
The original murders committed by De Angelo were more like manslaughter. Presumably, he did not intend to kill Snelling and the Maggiores, but instead shot his way out of trouble.
Offerman and Manning were then found shot, but this time, it seems De Angelo was in control and chose to kill them. Previous experience was used, and he shot them.
All the ensuing ONS murders involve bludgeoning to death, so my conclusion would be that he discovered that he liked to kill but he did not get all he wanted out of it with Offerman/Manning. Once he came up with the bludgeoning, he found that this was what floated the boat for him, and so he stuck to it fortwith.
It really is not all that strange, it´s all about evolving the way I see it.

What you are suggesting is that there was always a possibility that De Angelo would take a long break of many years, and then the urge would come over him again and he would return to murder - but he would not do wat he enjoyed before, bludgeon strangers he had stalked to death. No, he would engage in relationships with women, and he would slowly poison them.

These matters are as far apart as one can imagine, more or less, and the whole idea lacks credibility.
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  #573  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:12 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Since you have an immutable unchanging MO/Signature for serial killers.
To be clear, I'm not claiming absolute immutability, only that violent "blitz" murders carried out in public are qualitatively light-years removed from slow poisoning in a domestic setting.
Quote:
Are the non-canonical JtR victims, JtR victims or not?
Probably not, in my view.
Quote:
What about the canonical ones? Are they all his victims or not?
Possibly not Stride.
Quote:
IMO, both MO and Signature evolve and change. They are not static even in this case.
All the Whitechapel murders conform to a pattern of violent blitz attacks involving knives and bloodshed. At a high level, they are qualitatively similar, albeit not in the finer detail. They are a different "species" of murder, if you like, than poisoning.
Quote:
EARONS changed his signature from shooting his victims to bashing their heads in. He even changed signature when we was ONS.

Sunday, December 30, 1979
Offerman and Manning were shot in the head.

Tuesday, August 19, 1980
Keith & Patrice Harrington were bludgeoned to death.

Firearms to logs of wood and lamps.
They're still sudden, violent acts, though, aren't they?
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  #574  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:14 AM
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1. We don´t know.

2. We don´t know.

3. We don´t know.

Its a matter of personal opinion, and it is up to each and every one to decide for themselves how much the evidence, the presented and the held back, is worth.

My own stance goes like this:

1. Yes, there are non-canonical victims that are victims of Jack.

2. Yes, Stride was killed by Jack.

3. After Mary Kelly, he goes on torso killing, which satisfies more or less the exact same urges within him as did the Ripper killings.

Regardless if I am correct or not, it still stands that a serial killer coming from eviscerations and gut rippings is totally unlikely to embark on a second serial killer career ten years after, this time as a poisoner.

Sorry, but no fraying the end of the cloth will change that.
I am using your criteria of immutable signatures for Lust murders. Yet by using your criteria when applied with my questions apparently you end up...

'We don't know'.

All I can derive from that is that your original criteria regarding MOs and Signatures for Lust murderers aren't even sufficient to segregate non-canonical victims from canonical ones.

How can that be if your own criteria has gone to great lengths to constrain itself around specific types of murders (lust killings) that can't change?

Irrespective of MO changes to poisoners, your criteria as it stands doesn't even seem to be able to handle the Whitechapel murders.

If it can't do that, what good is it in considering potential suspects with a background in any form of murder?
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Last edited by Batman : 10-17-2018 at 02:19 AM.
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  #575  
Old 10-17-2018, 02:27 AM
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It really is not all that strange, it´s all about evolving the way I see it.

What you are suggesting is that there was always a possibility that De Angelo would take a long break of many years, and then the urge would come over him again and he would return to murder - but he would not do wat he enjoyed before, bludgeon strangers he had stalked to death. No, he would engage in relationships with women, and he would slowly poison them.

These matters are as far apart as one can imagine, more or less, and the whole idea lacks credibility.
Aside from the fact that evolving MOs/Signatures means they are not immutable, the reason why EARONS changed to bashing heads in from shooting was that there was another serial killer on the loose at the time bashing heads in. The ONS bashing crimes were confused with the bedroom basher. He changed his MO and signature to further confuse investigators. He kept doing it because he was getting away it.

Shooting your victims is not up close and personal like bashing heads. They are two very different methods of murder. That's why they were never connected... but are in fact connected, as evidenced from DNA.
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  #576  
Old 10-17-2018, 03:03 AM
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so my conclusion would be that he discovered that he liked to kill but he did not get all he wanted out of it with Offerman/Manning. Once he came up with the bludgeoning, he found that this was what floated the boat for him, and so he stuck to it fortwith.
If he discovered he liked to kill when he shot Snelling, then the EAR crimes would have been homicide crimes. They were not. They were rapes and home invasions. He only shot when cornered. He shot and killed Snelling. Shot and missed McGowan. Shot and killed both Brian and Kate Maggiore. Shot at a paperboy. So he had three homicides as VR/EAR and yet he is not murdering his targets until he becomes ONS. Then he is shooting them. Then he changes again to bludgeoning. The signatures different. Same person.
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  #577  
Old 10-17-2018, 03:12 AM
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If he discovered he liked to kill when he shot Snelling, then the EAR crimes would have been homicide crimes. They were not. They were rapes and home invasions. He only shot when cornered. He shot and killed Snelling. Shot and missed McGowan. Shot and killed both Brian and Kate Maggiore. Shot at a paperboy. So he had three homicides as VR/EAR and yet he is not murdering his targets until he becomes ONS. Then he is shooting them. Then he changes again to bludgeoning. The signatures different. Same person.
Again, these are all sudden, violent crimes.
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  #578  
Old 10-17-2018, 03:30 AM
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Again, these are all sudden, violent crimes.
The "Blitzing" or "Suddenness" of an attack is not emotionally fulfilling. It is just an MO. A means to an end which isn't achieved by this alone. Evidently, for JtR the blitzing for MJK involves her already being prostrate and no need to be slammed down like the others. He uses a sheet to blitz her this time. Again, this is just MO. It also explains why the double event is viewed as JtR murders. We see the MO with Stride but not the signature. No emotional satisfaction. He moved on.

This type of MO is almost certainly variable and more important, not necessary under all environmental conditions as seen from Kelly being already lying down.

He doesn't need Blitzing to emotionally satisfy him.
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  #579  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:06 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I am using your criteria of immutable signatures for Lust murders. Yet by using your criteria when applied with my questions apparently you end up...

'We don't know'.

All I can derive from that is that your original criteria regarding MOs and Signatures for Lust murderers aren't even sufficient to segregate non-canonical victims from canonical ones.

How can that be if your own criteria has gone to great lengths to constrain itself around specific types of murders (lust killings) that can't change?

Irrespective of MO changes to poisoners, your criteria as it stands doesn't even seem to be able to handle the Whitechapel murders.

If it can't do that, what good is it in considering potential suspects with a background in any form of murder?
You are not using "my criteria". Just as the case is with Gareth, you are INVENTING criteria on our respective behalfs.

What I say is that many things are theoretically possible but practically more or less impossible. That means that I have safeguarded myself from any such antics as you are now employing. Of course we don´t know that the C5 are all the Rippers work or that none of the others are his. It would be utterly stupid to claim otherwise. That, however, does not mean that it is a toss-up. The likelihood of two eviscerators killing away in the same smallish area and time is a miniscule one, and there are enough likenesses inbetween the murders to make them a very fair bet for a common originator. That, by the way, is why Jack is considered a historical fact for most discerning researchers.

I am not the problem here - you are. Once somebody says "If Ted Bundy could steal, then George Chapman could well have evolved from eviscerator to poison killer, the need for a reality check becomes dire.
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  #580  
Old 10-17-2018, 05:13 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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If he discovered he liked to kill when he shot Snelling, then the EAR crimes would have been homicide crimes. They were not. They were rapes and home invasions. He only shot when cornered. He shot and killed Snelling. Shot and missed McGowan. Shot and killed both Brian and Kate Maggiore. Shot at a paperboy. So he had three homicides as VR/EAR and yet he is not murdering his targets until he becomes ONS. Then he is shooting them. Then he changes again to bludgeoning. The signatures different. Same person.
The examples of serial killer who evolved are numerous. This is another one, and there is nothing at all strange about it. De Angelo also - very typically - went through a time cycle that started with burglaries and went over rapes to murder. Likewise, as a killer, his murders increased in savagery and violence.

It is a schoolbook example of how many serialists evolve. Sadly, though, it is not a schholbook example of how serialists will evolve BACKWARDS developing a taste for much less violent murders as they go along. I cannot think of any serial killer who de-escalated in terms of violence applied throughout his series, much less any such creature who performed TWO wildly different types of murder series, locking onto a very specific method of killing in each series and keeping to it, but producing one initial series that was extremely intimate and violent whereas the following series was totally distanced and calculatingly cool.

CAN it happen? Yes, theoretically it can.

WILL it happen? No, practically speaking, it will not. Try as you might.
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