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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

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  #551  
Old 10-16-2018, 05:41 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
I’m no authority on Chapman by any means but the victimology was different, correct? Chapman targeted his lovers, while the Ripper seemingly targeted random streetwalkers. Therein could lie the difference in MO.
Abberline said the same thing.
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  #552  
Old 10-16-2018, 06:03 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Was the Robert Koslowski b 1859 in Germany any relation to Chapman does anyone know? He was a Chemists assistant in 1891 census in Wardour street.
Perhaps not, Paddy. Although superficially similar, the name Kozłowski/Kosłowski is of different origin to Kłosowski, and we're looking at a different country.

I frustratingly encountered a lot of Kozłowskis when trawling through thousands of pages of ships' manifests when I tried, and failed, to trace when Seweryn Kłosowski left Poland for London. That's perhaps because Kozłowski is a rather common Polish name, but (from a quick search) Kłosowski is much less so.
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  #553  
Old 10-16-2018, 06:03 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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How do you know JtR harvesting wombs wasn't financially motivated?

Holmes tortured people.
Once we enter the word "know" or "fact" into the discussion, we can always find ways to sidestep the practical side of things...

I don´t "know" that the Ripper did not harvest wombs for financial gain. However!

If he DID, then:

- why did he not take out the wombs from Tabram, Nichols and Stride?
- why did he make a messy job of the excisions he DID perform?
- not least, why would he leave Kelly´s uterus behind?
- why excise other organs - or half of them...?

I am no connoiseur of Holmes, so I´d welcome an explanation from you about how Holmes did away with his victims. Who were poisoned? Did he eviscerate? Did he cut the abdomens open? Did he dismember, and if so, how? A list of the proven victims and how he killed them would be useful, if we are going to use Holmes as a comparison for the combined poisoner/Ripper. Is that asking too much, or can you provide it? Or a link to any site that is factual and precise about it?
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  #554  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Once we enter the word "know" or "fact" into the discussion, we can always find ways to sidestep the practical side of things...

I don´t "know" that the Ripper did not harvest wombs for financial gain. However!

If he DID, then:

- why did he not take out the wombs from Tabram, Nichols and Stride?
- why did he make a messy job of the excisions he DID perform?
- not least, why would he leave Kelly´s uterus behind?
- why excise other organs - or half of them...?

I am no connoiseur of Holmes, so I´d welcome an explanation from you about how Holmes did away with his victims. Who were poisoned? Did he eviscerate? Did he cut the abdomens open? Did he dismember, and if so, how? A list of the proven victims and how he killed them would be useful, if we are going to use Holmes as a comparison for the combined poisoner/Ripper. Is that asking too much, or can you provide it? Or a link to any site that is factual and precise about it?
We don't know if JtR was profiting from some of the murders or not, so yes we can ask those questions. Reasons for non-removal could be anything from experimentation, trial and error, being disturbed, working in the dark, not wanting to get caught with organs because of a misjudged escape route etc.

The book I read on H.H.Holmes was The Devil in White City by Erik Larson. We are going back to a time during 1890s, so the evidence would be somewhat like what evidence we have for JtR but much less because Holmes sold cadavers on which is why many bodies were not recovered and he also burned people to ashes, some alive. It describes the floors of his murder castle with the gas chambers and the pieces of bodies found in the basement.
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  #555  
Old 10-16-2018, 10:33 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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We don't know if JtR was profiting from some of the murders or not, so yes we can ask those questions. Reasons for non-removal could be anything from experimentation, trial and error, being disturbed, working in the dark, not wanting to get caught with organs because of a misjudged escape route etc.

The book I read on H.H.Holmes was The Devil in White City by Erik Larson. We are going back to a time during 1890s, so the evidence would be somewhat like what evidence we have for JtR but much less because Holmes sold cadavers on which is why many bodies were not recovered and he also burned people to ashes, some alive. It describes the floors of his murder castle with the gas chambers and the pieces of bodies found in the basement.
Again, can you tell me what victim was poisoned and whether Holmes engaged in eviscerations and/or dismemberments?

Yes, we can ask all sorts of questions about the Ripper, and all kinds of explanation can be offered for why he took some uteri while others were left behind. We can probably even come up with some sort of explanation as to why he left Kellys uterus behind, although he set out to sell it (or so it is inferred).

Then again, we can lean against the much more credible suggestion that the killer was an eviscerator who acted on urges within himself, and that he therefore was not careful about these matters.

It is one of the problems with ripperology: far too much time is spent on discussing wingless suggestions that are thrown up into the air over and over again.
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  #556  
Old 10-16-2018, 11:07 AM
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Again, can you tell me what victim was poisoned and whether Holmes engaged in eviscerations and/or dismemberments?
He poisoned 12-year-old Pearl Connor and butchered her.

He overdosed Julia Smythe on chloroform.

He gassed Annie Pitezel inside a murder vault.

Here are the mutilations.

http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/H.H._Holmes
Holmes varied in his victimology and M.O. His victims were usually employees, lovers, and hotel guests. Some of them were locked in soundproof rooms fitted with gas lines that let him asphyxiate them. Others were taken to the "Secret Hanging Chamber", where they would be hanged by Holmes. Others were locked in a soundproof bank vault and left to suffocate. Others were taken to another secret room that was sealed up by solid bricks and could only be entered through a trapdoor in the ceiling; these victims were locked there and left to die of starvation and dehydration. After their deaths, Holmes would take the bodies to a metal chute or a dummy elevator leading to the basement, where most of them were dissected, stripped of their flesh, crafted into skeleton models, and sold to medical schools. Alternatively, Holmes would dispose of them in lime pits; incinerate the bodies; or use corrosive acid, poison, and even a stretching rack on the bodies.

The recovered pieces of people from that hotel in the basement. Hair, teeth, bones. Badly dismembered body parts. The exact figure of how many he killed there is unknown but we also know a lot of his 'guests' which are named in the book, never returned home again.

The book I referenced does his case better Justice.
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  #557  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:35 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Hi Fisherman.

You seem to be dangerously close to advocating the old 19th Century concept of monomania.

"The Ripper cut open women."

"Ergo, he was a man with an urge to cut open women."

(No other urges...just that one urge).

"Therefore the answer is simplicity itself: look for a man with an urge to cut open women."

"Abberline, find me a man with that urge!"

How do you propose Abberline do that?

In reality, aren't you merely re-describing the known crimes of the Ripper--cutting open women--and then making it his monomaniacal all-in-all?

It allows no intelligent way forward. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry in East London could have this secret solitary "urge" and thus be is as good a suspect as a known psychopath--Klosowski.

So around and around we go all around the mulberry bush. 300 suspects and counting...

It's a neat way of leveling the playingfield, perhaps, but is it really an accurate way of describing the faulty brain chemistry of a psychopath?

Ted Bundy stole cars. Peter Kurten spent years in prison for theft. Robert Durst shoplifted. The psychopath doesn't shut off his brain chemistry like hot and cold running water taps.

There may be good reasons for ultimately being skeptical about the Klosowski theory, but poisoning his old ladies isn't one of them. It is hardly an alibi. It's no better an alibi than saying Kurten was a burglar.

All the best.
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  #558  
Old 10-16-2018, 02:02 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Hi Fisherman.

You seem to be dangerously close to advocating the old 19th Century concept of monomania.

"The Ripper cut open women."

"Ergo, he was a man with an urge to cut open women."

(No other urges...just that one urge).

"Therefore the answer is simplicity itself: look for a man with an urge to cut open women."

"Abberline, find me a man with that urge!"

How do you propose Abberline do that?

In reality, aren't you merely re-describing the known crimes of the Ripper--cutting open women--and then making it his monomaniacal all-in-all?

It allows no intelligent way forward. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry in East London could have this secret solitary "urge" and thus be is as good a suspect as a known psychopath--Klosowski.

So around and around we go all around the mulberry bush. 300 suspects and counting...

It's a neat way of leveling the playingfield, perhaps, but is it really an accurate way of describing the faulty brain chemistry of a psychopath?

Ted Bundy stole cars. Peter Kurten spent years in prison for theft. Robert Durst shoplifted. The psychopath doesn't shut off his brain chemistry like hot and cold running water taps.

There may be good reasons for ultimately being skeptical about the Klosowski theory, but poisoning his old ladies isn't one of them. It is hardly an alibi. It's no better an alibi than saying Kurten was a burglar.

All the best.
Hi R J!

I am being a bit economical about how I describe the motivations that lay behind the Rippers deeds. Note, for example, how I am not fond of saying that he had an urge to eviscerate - for the simple reason that I´m not sure that he had such an urge. I would feel better about saying that eviscerations is one of the things that allowed him to reach his aim. I happen to think that cutting limbs away (to my mind, he was definitely the torso killer too) cutting a face away or opening up an abdomen were other examples of what rocked his boat in this respect, so to say; no single example was necessary but they could all represent, be part of, the concept to which he worked.
To me, the Ripper murders involve a "ritualistic" element - not ritualistic as in religious rites, but certainly involving an agenda that goes beyond the mere urge to cut.

Speculating that the Ripper may have given up on his agenda from 1888 in favour of turning a poisoner of partners in later years is something that I find very, very unlikely. Yes, theoretically it works - but so very many things that work theoretically fall short of adapting to practical circumstances, and I fear this is one such matter as far as I´m concerned.

I can easily imagine a wife poisoner stealing a car, or shoplifting. I would not be amazed in the least if the Ripper stole at times, or if Chapman did - or the torso killer. If you can do what they did, it would be stupid to claim that they would refrain from moral or ethical or whatever reasons to steal. They all broke the ultimate taboo, and that means that they could break smaller ones too. So pointing out that Kürten burglarized is not something that should surprise us - but I don´t think it goes to show how a serial eviscerator and knife-cutter, involved in the most hands-on kind of murders is in any way likely to turn into a wife-poisoner ten years down the line. The comparison is not a useful one. It´s not about how someone who has killed in one way has proven himself able to kill in another - it´s about how the methods and victimologies differ too much to be even remotely likely to fit one sole man, both of them.
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  #559  
Old 10-16-2018, 02:14 PM
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Speculating that the Ripper may have given up on his agenda from 1888 in favour of turning a poisoner of partners in later years is something that I find very, very unlikely. Yes, theoretically it works - but so very many things that work theoretically fall short of adapting to practical circumstances, and I fear this is one such matter as far as I´m concerned.
Canonically JtR finishes with Mary Jane Kelly. Non-canonically there are three more in 89 and two more in 91. Either way, it's either a dead stop with Kelly or a slow cooldown over a few years. However, it closes in 91 and it closes relatively quickly in comparison to many serial killers. So something happened to JtR. Where is the ripping? The Chapman view says, maybe he wasn't for a while and doing something else with his life like getting married a bigamist and having a new family for example. Trying to blend back into society maybe? I believe EARONS did this after his last known murder in 1986. Anyway if JtR he spent either from 88-97 not killing or 91-97 because 97 is the year he started poisoning (to our knowledge). That kind of pause is not unheard of in SKs.
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  #560  
Old 10-16-2018, 02:40 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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I can easily imagine a wife poisoner stealing a car, or shoplifting.
Indeed, or anyone else for that matter, because car-theft and shoplifting aren't forms of murder. Killers may have any number of "extracurricular" criminal behaviours - and they often do - but I'm more interested in the manner in which they actually kill. Is it violent and rapid, or subtle and drawn out over months? This is what we're actually looking at when we consider the theoretical JTR-turned-poisoner.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-16-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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