Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by caz 1 minute ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by MrBarnett 6 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 7 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 10 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 14 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Batman 39 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (68 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (3 posts)
General Discussion: Mary Kelly Jack the Ripper celebrity ghost box session interview - (2 posts)
Rippercast: Donald Rumbelow at the Cloak & Dagger Club 1999- The Siege of Sidney Street - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Media > Books > Non-Fiction

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #361  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:43 AM
Robert Robert is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,895
Default

Hi Simon

I suppose Joe had been thinking a good deal about Mary after the murder. Memories would have come back. And he would have known that he'd be questioned about anyone who knew her, her early life, that kind of thing. Wouldn't he have wanted to get the info straight in his head before going into the witness box? Umming and arring wouldn't have helped the hunt for her killer and would have made him look bad.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #362  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:05 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,581
Default

Hi Robert,

Barnett not umming and arring didn't help in the hunt for her killer, but did earn him a compliment from the Coroner.

Regards,

Simon
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #363  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:45 PM
Batman Batman is online now
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,603
Default

I wonder if Barnett was Mr. Galloway's "Blotchy" doing re-creations out on the streets with the investigators?

If not then I wonder if it was Robert Sagar?
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #364  
Old 10-15-2018, 01:51 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,223
Default

I don't think Sagar would have made a good Mr. Blotchy.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #365  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:07 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,808
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Jon,

I agree with you regarding MJK not being the victim's real name.

You ask, "Did she [the victim] know a real Mary Kelly?"

You then go on to say, "If you are going to adopt a fake persona, it is always wise to pick one you are familiar with."

Agreed. I would only add that it is even wiser to pick the persona of someone who is roughly the same age and already dead.

Hi Simon.

Is it really necessary in late Victorian England to only take the name of a dead person?
Checking up on someone's family who lives hundreds of miles away in Wales, or even Ireland, can't have been too easy.
Not much of a problem today, but back when letters & telegrams were the normal means of long distance communication, would it really matter?


Quote:
...The victim didn't need to know anything about a "real Mary Kelly" as she had no lines to learn.
There I would disagree.
The victim can't be telling one person that her father came to London looking for her, then tell another that her family still live in Ireland. She needs to know which brother was in the army, she can't afford to get the names mixed up. If she has a sister who adores her she needs to learn her name to be consistent.
Many personal details come out of simple casual conversation, and this is when an imposter can most easily screw up.


Quote:
If the Room 13 victim was someone other than MJK, what made it necessary to go to into such unconfirmable detail in order to satisfy everyone that the victim actually was someone known as MJK?
Possibly, in order to avoid anyone finding out who she really was?
If she was not convincing in her role-play, then people may start asking questions.
We already have had theories put forward asking why such a rapid downfall. From the house of a West End madam, to the back streets of the worst cesspit in London.
Who was she hiding from?

Quote:
If not MJK, who could the Room 13 victim have been?
The cousin?
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #366  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:45 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,808
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post

Some of what 'Kelly' told Joe Barnett has been supported by modern research. The Morganstone, McCarthy, Buki, Felix, Breezers Hill/Pennington Street stuff checks out to a considerable degree. Perhaps the Welsh/Irish stuff would too, if only we knew her real name.
I suspect it has been dawning on some researchers over the past few years that Mary Kelly was not her real name.
I've certainly held that suspicion for a few years, it seems to be the only obvious solution to the mystery of why she can't be found.

Which means,....every Mary Kelly that has been found by researchers, and eliminated because they did not die in 1888, is back in the running.
One of them just might be the 'real' Mary Kelly, because the 'real' Mary Kelly also did not die.
What we are looking for, unknowingly up until now is, a close friend or relative of that Mary Kelly.

So, possibly, one of those Mary Kelly's lost a friend or relative in 1888.
And, the only real clue we have as to which one is the 'real' Mary Kelly (the source of the mystery) is the bio that we have from Barnett.
The Mary Kelly in question was about 25 yr old, had one sister, seven brothers - one in the army, and one was named Henry; family came from Ireland, but now residing in Wales; a father named John who was a 'gaffer' in the Ironworks; a cousin in or near Cardiff, an aunt in the market trade.....etc. etc.

Any one of these details could also be wrong, but it's all there is to start the search.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #367  
Old 10-15-2018, 02:56 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,581
Default

Hi Jon,

The victim needn't have told anybody anything.

Barnett, Felix and Carthy filled in the details. The whole of the MJK back-story came from them—nobody else—and might not have had anything to do with the body in Room 13.

Regards,

Simon
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #368  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:39 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,663
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Indeed, Gary - then again, I know everyone who frequents my local pubs... not Even when I used to go every night, I never got to know everyone by name. And this in a village with fewer than 2,000 residents, not much more populous than three streets in the Spitalfields slums.
"Every night?" Wow. Thanks for sharing. I now feel much better about my drinking habits.

c.d.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #369  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:53 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 787
Default

Found a John Kelly and family in Howarden, Flintshire. Now I know this doesn't quite fit, but he was a Foreman of an Engineering works. If you look at his neighbors they worked in an Iron Foundry so I thought he might have been connected to that ? The family are Kelly in other census...
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Paddy : 10-15-2018 at 04:08 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #370  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:30 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
"Every night?" Wow. Thanks for sharing. I now feel much better about my drinking habits. .
It was that kind of village; everything revolved around beer and rugby (or cricket in the summer). Believe it or not not, some of my mates were in the pub during the daytime as well! At least I limited my visits to the evenings
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.