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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

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  #21  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:17 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Will you ?
I hardly think that's all that was said. What else passed between the man and Annie Chapman before and after Mrs Long walked by? What else passed between them if, as is possible, he didn't happen to pick her up right outside #29 but elsewhere? And, if #29 happened to be the only pick-up point, are we to believe that JTR simply loomed up on Dark Annie and uttered just two syllables, before heading out back and killing her?
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-12-2018 at 08:22 AM.
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  #22  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:23 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I hardly think that's all that was said. What else passed between the man and Annie Chapman before and after Mrs Long walked by? What else passed between them if, as is possible, he didn't miraculously happen to pick her up right outside #29 but elsewhere? And, if this happened to be the only pick-up point, are we to believe that JTR loomed up on Dark Annie and uttered just two syllables, before heading out back and killing her?
Possibly, but that`s all the witness heard, and it would have been suffice.
Man with limited English walks up to woman and says will you ?

According to Mrs Long, the woman approached the man outside No. 29
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:31 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Possibly, but that`s all the witness heard, and it would have been suffice.
The witness was walking past, and wasn't she also on a bit of a mission? Be that as it may, there's nothing odd about the suggestion that what Mrs Long heard was a mere fragment of a conversation. "Will you?" on its own seems somewhat minimalist, to put it mildly. And, let's not forget, Long thought the man she saw was 40 or older.

Which two syllables came from the lips of the 30-35 year old man on whose chest Eddowes' rested her hand, I wonder, before, during and after Lawende and company walked by?
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-12-2018 at 08:34 AM.
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  #24  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:47 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Be that as it may, there's nothing odd about the suggestion that what Mrs Long heard was a mere fragment of a conversation. "Will you?"
No, but we were talking about a man with limited English, and Mrs Long didn`t hear anymore conversation. For the sake of accuracy why create more from this encounter ?

Quote:
on its own seems somewhat minimalist, to put it mildly. And, let's not forget, Long thought the man she saw was 40 or older.
Yes, she saw the back of his neck.

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Which two syllables came from the lips of the 30-35 year old man on whose chest Eddowes' rested her hand, I wonder, before, during and after Lawende and company walked by?
Again Will you ? would have been enough for Eddowes to understand.
Some people just don`t talk much.
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  #25  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:22 AM
John G John G is offline
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I have a question regarding Mrs Long's suspect. She, of course, described him as being over 40 (although she also says she didn't see is face but noticed he was "dark", which strikes me as a bit odd). Now, of course today that would be tantamount to saying the man was middle aged. However, in 1888 40 would have been around someone's life expectancy, so could she feasibly have been suggesting that the man was aged?

That said, I suspect that the high level of infant mortality had a major effect on life expectancies. Moreover, Coroner Baxter asked if he looked like a dock labourer or workman, so I doubt he had the impression the man was old and decrepit!

By the way, Colin Roberts produced some intetesting statistics on life expectancies of the period: https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10764
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:52 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Again Will you ? would have been enough for Eddowes to understand.
Some people just don`t talk much.
We don't know how long that encounter lasted, but the chances that it only took place just as Long was passing by would be rather unlikely. Let's say that, between the time Long first saw "Annie" (if it was she), passed by and went on her way, "Annie" and "JTR" were together for 20 seconds. Did they stare into each others eyes for the duration, punctuated only by a "Will you?" and a solitary "Yes"? What of Eddowes outside Church Passage? Stride and her drinking buddy or BSM? Kelly and Blotchy or Astrakhan?

Perhaps Jack was a very taciturn Ripper, but I doubt very much that a killer as audacious and elusive as he was could have got by without a reasonably good grasp of the vernacular, if only enough to put his victims at their ease when so much popular suspicion was aimed at "foreigners".
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 10-12-2018 at 09:54 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:28 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Imagine a suspect is pulled in for being the ripper.

They can't speak English or their English is really bad. Does that mean they are exonerated because of lack of English speaking skills?

What if they are under 30? Does that mean they are exonerated because they are not between 30 and 40?
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:50 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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They can't speak English or their English is really bad. Does that mean they are exonerated because of lack of English speaking skills?
Not on its own, because it's just possible that we've got a grunting, miming, monosyllabic killer on our hands. That said, I would count his poor English as a slight mark against him.
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What if they are under 30?
Not just "under 30", but twenty one, for goodness' sake!
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:51 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Imagine a suspect is pulled in for being the ripper.

They can't speak English or their English is really bad. Does that mean they are exonerated because of lack of English speaking skills?

What if they are under 30? Does that mean they are exonerated because they are not between 30 and 40?
No. I think as regards English, The Ripper would only need to have a rudementary grasp of the language-the odd word/phrase. As for how old a supect may have been, some people are just terrible at estimating ages. And that includes me! The other day, for instance, I underestimated someone's age by over 10 years, and that's someone I know well. I've been known to overestimate by a similar amount as well. And if I only got a glimpse of someone in poor light I could be way out with my estimate!

I would also note that Lawende estimated his suspect to be around 30, but then apparently identified Kosminski, even though he would have been only 23-24 at the time.

Last edited by John G : 10-12-2018 at 12:17 PM.
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2018, 12:22 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
No. I think as regards English, The Ripper would only need to have a rudementary grasp of the language-the odd word/phrase. As for how old a supect may have been, some people are just terrible at estimating ages. And that includes me! The other day, for instance, I underestimated someone's age by over 10 years, and that's someone I know well. I've been known to overestimate by a similar amount as well. And if I only got a glimpse of someone in poor light I could be way out with my estimate!
In short, you don't disqualify them because of age estimates. This is because in biology age is just revolutions around the sun and has ZERO bearing on biological development in humans beyond getting sunlight and night (and supporting the ecosystem).

Maturation in developmental biology is mostly genetic. There are some environmental influences, but basically, teenagers can have a full mustache, some even have beards and for others, they won't get a good shaggy look until they are in their 20s and some never at all. Then we have just environmental influences on top of it, such as nutrition at a young age, throughout life, how much wind or sun roasted their faces working on ships or in the fields or not, etc, etc.

Whitechapel was a hard area. Nearly everyone there looks ten years old than what they should be anyway. Just look at the photographs.

That's all before we have a person getting a casual glance at someone who may or may not be JtR and then is recalling it from .... yeah... human memory.

So yeah, of course, we should just turn away suspects who don't meet the age criteria or can't speak the language. A sure way to help narrow down that pool of suspects right?
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Last edited by Batman : 10-12-2018 at 12:24 PM.
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