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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

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  #11  
Old 10-12-2018, 05:47 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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A short man, with a dark moustache and shiny boots and blue trousers, just like a sailor approached Frances Coles on Whitechapel High Street in the early hours of 13th Feb 1891.

Was Chapman living on Whitechapel High Street at this time ?
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  #12  
Old 10-12-2018, 05:54 AM
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How do you know he was a slim 22-year-old if you are saying we can't make any claims about his looks during 1888?
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2018, 06:21 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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How do you know he was a slim 22-year-old if you are saying we can't make any claims about his looks during 1888?
You can tell by his build; some people are naturally bony, and I doubt that a newly arrived immigrant earning the meagre wages of a barber's assistant in 1888 would have been larger than he was when he eventually started making a modest living in the 1890s. He apparently looked the same in 1902 as he did in earlier years (Levisohn), and it's hardly likely that his shoulders would have shrunk in the interim, nor that he'd looked like a thirty-something when aged only 22.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
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You can tell by his build; some people are naturally bony, and I doubt that a newly arrived immigrant earning the meagre wages of a barber's assistant in 1888 would have been larger than he was when he eventually started making a modest living in the 1890s. He apparently looked the same in 1902 as he did in earlier years (Levisohn), and it's hardly likely that his shoulders would have shrunk in the interim, nor that he'd looked like a thirty-something when aged only 22.
You can't tell by his 'build'. Beer is very high in carbohydrates. A lot of stout people are stout from drink but mostly malnourished all the same. Just look at the unfortunates.

By the way, you have found a source that seems to claim that he looked the same in 1902 as he did in earlier years. So why didn't you mention that when discussing how we have no idea what he was wearing in '1888'. Does your source specifically say they are just addressing his physique?

Jon has a good question above.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:28 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
You can tell by his build; some people are naturally bony, and I doubt that a newly arrived immigrant earning the meagre wages of a barber's assistant in 1888 would have been larger than he was when he eventually started making a modest living in the 1890s. He apparently looked the same in 1902 as he did in earlier years (Levisohn), and it's hardly likely that his shoulders would have shrunk in the interim, nor that he'd looked like a thirty-something when aged only 22.
HI Sam
but if he looked the same in 1902 than he did in his earlier years, dosnt that mean he looked older than he was in his earlier years?
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  #16  
Old 10-12-2018, 07:14 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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HI Sam
but if he looked the same in 1902 than he did in his earlier years, dosnt that mean he looked older than he was in his earlier years?
Wolff Levisohn was commenting on Kłosowski's general appearance in order to confirm his identification of the defendant; he wasn't saying that he hadn't aged. Besides, a 22 year-old is still in the flush of youth; he's not going to look like a man in 30s, like the majority of Ripper witnesses reported seeing, and none - as far as I recall - reported seeing a man in his early twenties. Furthermore, "broad-shouldered" is "broad-shouldered", "medium build" is "medium build", and "stout" is "stout". Whoever Long, Schwartz, Brown, Lawende, Lewis et al saw on those fateful nights, it wasn't Seweryn Kłosowski, we can be fairly certain about that.

Heck, we don't know for sure that he even lived in the area at the time.
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  #17  
Old 10-12-2018, 07:42 AM
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Age is probably the least reliable component of any offender description.

You even demonstrated this when you said...

Quote:
Long (about 40), Schwartz (30-35), Lawende (30-35), Hutchinson (34-35).
That's a variation of 10 years. 30-40.

What it tells us is that there was a lot of variation in estimating his age. Which is to be expected.
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:54 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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You can't tell by his 'build'.
I think we can. He certainly doesn't look like the type to have been a "stout" person at any time in his life. And, certainly, his shoulders would not have shrunk since 1888, nor would he have appeared to be in his 30s during that year.
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By the way, you have found a source that seems to claim that he looked the same in 1902 as he did in earlier years.
It comes from the account of the Southwark Police Court hearing published in HL Adam's Trial of George Chapman.

"The witness [Levisohn] ceased to see the accused from 1890 until 1894, when he saw him as an assistant at 5 West Green Road, South Tottenham. [...] The witness lost sight of him for some little time, and next saw him at a shop opposite Bruce Grove Station. This was his [Kłosowski's] own shop. [...] When at Tottenham the accused could talk a little English.

Cross-examined by Mr. Sydney: 'You saw him at Tottenham. What sort of man was [he]?'

Levisohn: 'He was la de da, then; with black coat, patent boots, and high hat. There he sits. He has not changed a bit...'

Stanislaus Rauch/Baderski [Kłosowski's brother-in-law] testified as follows: "He had not seen the accused from [1892/93] until he saw him in the dock; an interval of ten years. The accused had not changed in appearance"
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So why didn't you mention that when discussing how we have no idea what he was wearing in '1888'. Does your source specifically say they are just addressing his physique?
I never claimed they were just addressing his physique, but it's quite clear that his overall appearance had changed very little.

Note the bit in red, by the way. Levisohn said that Kłosowski could "talk a little English" in 1894, which implies that when they first met (probably 1889/90) Kłosowski's grasp of English was cruder still, if not non-existent. How far do we think Jack the Ripper would have got in terms of duping a potential victim in 1888, if he could only manage a little English six years later? And, before someone comes up with the counter-argument that it doesn't take much to signify one's intentions to an "unfortunate", JTR certainly seems to have engaged both Annie Chapman and Catherine Eddowes in some sort of conversation before luring them to their deaths and, if Hutchinson can be trusted, the same would apply in spades to Mary Kelly's killer.
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  #19  
Old 10-12-2018, 08:08 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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That's a variation of 10 years. 30-40.

What it tells us is that there was a lot of variation in estimating his age. Which is to be expected.
Anyone should have been able to easily distinguish a 21 year-old youth from someone who, in Victorian terms, was practically middle-aged.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:09 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Note the bit in red, by the way. Levisohn said that Kłosowski could "talk a little English" in 1894, which implies that when they first met (probably 1889/90) Kłosowski's grasp of English was cruder still, if not non-existent. How far do we think Jack the Ripper would have got in terms of duping a potential victim in 1888, if he could only manage a little English six years later? And, before someone comes up with the counter-argument that it doesn't take much to signify one's intentions to an "unfortunate", JTR certainly seems to have engaged both Annie Chapman and Catherine Eddowes in some sort of conversation before luring them to their deaths and, if Hutchinson can be trusted, the same would apply in spades to Mary Kelly's killer.
Will you ?
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