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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #201  
Old 09-25-2018, 12:20 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
HI DK
I think Brown saw another man-he dosnt quite fit the description of the other witnesses. and I would suggest that Schwartz wasn't at the inquest because of the fact he was basically a foreigner, and didn't speak the language(logistics with an interpreter etc.)
Interpreter brought to an inquest.

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  #202  
Old 09-25-2018, 12:46 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
For me, the fact that "Jack" just happened to find, seduce, kill and mutilate another victim so quickly after Berner Street is one of the factors that militates against the Double Event's being the work of one killer.
However... there she was. She is there irrespective of what happened at Berner Street. She is there because the police decided to let her out at whatever random time they decided. She is walking in that direction because she wants to go that way.

The problem with rejecting the Double Event is that this is Goldilocks porridge. If Stride had died earlier, Eddowes would have been in the drunk tank. If Stride had died later then Eddowes would have probably have gone well beyond the general area around Mitre Square.

A person walking from the site of Strides murder, towards the city center, can likely happen upon a window of vision to see Eddowes making her way away from the city center.

This is what the investigators got at the time. It is what the press understood also. There was also other murders that same day but they didn't link those did they?

Take the analogy of a double robbery in two villages where no one saw anything but we know what time they happened. If they can't be done in driving time, then we can rule them out as being done by the same people. Likewise, if there is a driving time which isn't excessively slow or fast, say a Google Maps time, then we can infer this probably indicates a relationship between the robberies.
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Last edited by Batman : 09-25-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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  #203  
Old 09-25-2018, 12:56 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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However... there she was. She is there irrespective of what happened at Berner Street. She is there because the police decided to let her out at whatever random time they decided. She is walking in that direction because she wants to go that way.
It's not her I'm bothered about, it's him. My guess is that, far from hanging about and then fleeing Berner Street, he was hanging around the area of the Spitalfields/City boundary for some time looking for potential victims and opportunities.
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  #204  
Old 09-25-2018, 01:00 PM
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It's not her I'm bothered about, it's him. My guess is that, far from hanging about and then fleeing Berner Street, he was hanging around the area of Mitre Square for some time looking for potential victims and opportunities.
However, we can say there are at least two instances of this happening with him before with Nichols and Chapman. We can also look at Kelly and say it probably happened there also. If we look at Stride and Schwartz's account of what happened JtR will blitz attack a random woman if he thinks he can get away with it. The blitz attack is an M.O of JtR from what I remember.
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  #205  
Old 09-25-2018, 01:13 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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For what reason do we include Stride?

Because if we didn't include her it would imply that more than one killer was at work, which would ruin the mythos of Jack the Ripper.
I'm pretty sure there was more than one killer at work, regardless of Stride.
But if we group Stride in with Smith, Tabram, Mylett, Mackenzie & Coles, does it change anything?

All that aside.
At the back of my mind is that later attack on Rose Mylett. One witness, Charles Ptolomey, saw two sailors, one was talking to Mylett. Their descriptions are remarkably similar to the descriptions noted by Swanson in his 19th Oct. report (Ultimate, p 123), of BS-man & Pipeman in Berner street.

"Upon going up England-row (nearly opposite Clarke's-yard) I noticed two sailors. The shorter one was speaking to the deceased, and the tall one was walking up and down. So strange did it seem that I stopped and 'took account' of them. Then I heard the woman say several times 'No! no! no!' and the short sailor spoke in a low tone. The tall one was about 5 ft. 11 in. He looked like a Yankee. The shorter one was about S ft. 7 in. It struck me that they were there for no good purpose, and that was the reason I took so much notice of their movements."
https://www.casebook.org/press_repor...le/881229.html
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  #206  
Old 09-25-2018, 01:22 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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However, we can say there are at least two instances of this happening with him before with Nichols and Chapman.
It's a lucky killer that just wanders into a street and finds a victim within a few minutes of his arrival. It's a fair bet that "Jack" was prowling around the environs of Whitechapel Road and Commercial Street for some time before the opportunities that were Nichols and Chapman came his way.
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  #207  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
For me, the fact that "Jack" just happened to find, seduce, kill and mutilate another victim so quickly after Berner Street is one of the factors that militates against the Double Event's being the work of one killer.
Hello Sam,

Find and seduce? Well prostitutes were all over Whitechapel and they hardly needed to be "seduced."

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  #208  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:13 PM
Batman Batman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
It's a lucky killer that just wanders into a street and finds a victim within a few minutes of his arrival. It's a fair bet that "Jack" was prowling around the environs of Whitechapel Road and Commercial Street for some time before the opportunities that were Nichols and Chapman came his way.
It is a 15 min walk from Dutfield Yard to Mitre Square.

Strides body was found at 1 am. There was no body there at 12:50 am. So this gives us a time when she roughly died. 12:50am - 1am.

Eddowes was being released from the drunk tank at the time Strides body was found at 1 am.

Her body was found at 1:44 am. There was no body there at 1:30 am.

That gave JtR a maximum stalking time of 44 minutes between Stride and Eddowes.

44 - 15 if we want to consider his 'flight' towards the city center as not stalking time.

Which means 30 minutes stalking time around Duke Street/Mitre square at the least.

Eddowes would come along half-staggering.

We haven't even factored in that he was also likely stalking prior to Stride.
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  #209  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:33 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post

Which is good because only Schwartz, BS Man and female were about.

Actually at 12:45 we have the young couple, we have Fanny off and on at her door, we have Morris Eagle claiming he returned to the club and walking past the murder scene..seeing no-one, we have Lave who says he was at the gates until around 20 to 1. We have Issac Kozebrodski saying her returned to the club at 12:30 and about 10 minutes later being summoned to the passageway by Louis, and we have several members who say that they saw the woman on the ground before 12:45. Including Spooner. We also have Goldstein walking past at 12:55. Seems like there were others about Jon.

She wasn`t at her door the whole time.

She didnt have to be, but she was from 12:50 until 1am.

Most of the physical evidence supports what Schwartz claims to have seen.
Which bits don`t
?

What "bits"? Did Israel mention her cashous? What in the physical evidence suggests she was assaulted before the assault that took her life?


Well... the police statement has her thrown to the pavement, and the newspaper account has her being pushed back into the alley

Yeah, they do. So which was it?

Or the slur was aimed at the very Jewish looking Schwartz

A nice break for the club in that detail eh....antisemitism. All Jewish club.

Yes, looks like she was standing in the gateway and was pushed back into the passageway.

There is no evidence she was pushed anywhere. She may have been poked in the chest as her attacker confronted her.

Yes, the actual throat cut could have taken her by surprise

Yep, she might have turned away from an aggressive persona and intended to exit via the gate, he might have grabbed her by the scarf, pulled her back off her feet, twisted the scarf and therefore her head as a reflex, then slid the knife across her thoat while dropping her.

Now that IS supported by ALL the physical evidence.
Everyone likes to suggest we use all the evidence to determine what really happened, yet they ignore the 4 or 5 witnesses that say Louis arrived before 1am and they were in the passageway around the dying woman before 12:45.

No-one saw Louis arrive..even though Fanny IS at her door at 1am, and no-one hears or sees anything of Israel or his characters.
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  #210  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:57 PM
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Two murders by knife with such a short space of time and distance.

Coincidences do happen....but we are far too late in proceedings to go chasing wild geese.
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