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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #171  
Old 09-24-2018, 03:58 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
Hard for me to believe,if caught(Schwartz) lying,then it was much worse,layng down a suspicion on them (IWEC) for doing so.If they did not do it just tell what they knew,I think this is what happened.Unless one of their associate was responsible for the murder then it was worth it.

They were already subjected to Reid: "persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors.The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves."

So I do not see the point of sending Schwartz later on to lie.

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Exactly varq.
Not only that schwartz is new to the country. Is he going to lie for a club, in a major murder investigation, to the police, endangering himself and his family to legal issues, imprisonment, suspicion,which to him was probably still a foreign country.

Not a chance.
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  #172  
Old 09-24-2018, 04:18 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"Not only that schwartz is new to the country. Is he going to lie for a club, in a major murder investigation, to the police, endangering himself and his family to legal issues, imprisonment, suspicion,which to him was probably still a foreign country."

I agree completely. Not only would Schwartz be putting himself into a potentially very bad situation if it were discovered that he lied but the club itself as well. Why not simply cooperate with the police fully as it appears they did?

c.d.
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  #173  
Old 09-24-2018, 04:20 PM
Batman Batman is online now
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Schwartz was taken seriously throughout what remains of the case files and contemporary records. Even did an investigation into the anti-Semitic remark about Lipski. Investigators obviously thought it was a lead.
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  #174  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:26 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Exactly varq.
Not only that schwartz is new to the country. Is he going to lie for a club, in a major murder investigation, to the police, endangering himself and his family to legal issues, imprisonment, suspicion,which to him was probably still a foreign country.

Not a chance.
Yeah that too.There was no point.

On a side note:

The police did, Reid:"police have made a house-to-house inquiry in the immediate neighbourhood, with the result that we have been able to produce the witnesses who have appeared before the Court",yet they did not find Fanny Mortimer and Charles Letchford and his sister.Nobody was asked when they last checked a timepiece,everybody was estimating the time.Eagle did not.Brown was in the chandler shop yet nobody was asked there.At least Smith had a regular beat.Creating a timeline is hard,it's a mess.

On October 23 Baxter ignored the three above.And Schwartz (possibly maybe the Lipski would have inflamed things.) who was mentioned in the The Star October 1, 1888.I think he would have been in the inquest if credible,just omit the Lipski incident like Schwartz did in the Star report.Baxter,in summary, went for Smith/Eagle/Brown as the last person(s) who passed Berner St.before the murder discovery.Leaning towards Schwartz not credible enough.

---
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  #175  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:33 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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If Schwartz testimony was oppressed because Lipski could inflame or it would alert the suspect why then there was no gag order,why talk to the Star.It does not make sense.

--
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  #176  
Old 09-25-2018, 01:53 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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I posted this on another thread, hope it is relevant regarding Schwartz testimony - Wynne Baxter gave a very detailed summing up on the last day of the inquest.
The CORONER, in summing up, said the jury would probably agree with him that it would be unreasonable to adjourn this inquiry again on the chance of something further being ascertained to elucidate the mysterious case on which they had devoted so much time.
Note something further being ascertained. So if Schwartz had gone missing or was difficult to find Wynne Baxter would certainly have adjourned the inquest again. Not only that but he goes into detail of the sightings of Marshall, Pc Smith and most tellingly James Brown. He then sums up whether they all saw the victim with the murderer or not,the time differences, and the differences in their descriptions, without debunking any of them. This is important with Brown because he allegedly saw Stride at the same time as Schwartz. Surely this would cast doubt on Brown seeing the victim but nowhere does he say or even hint at it. IE There is some evidence which is still being investigated which may suggest that the victim was seen in the company of another man the same time as the witness James Brown was alleged to have seen her. This would protect Schwartz whilst at the same time opening up the possibility that Brown was mistaken. Maybe just maybe the veracity of Schwartz was being investigated during the adjournment. But by the 23rd [Swanson's report is the 19th] he was considered to be too unreliable to take the stand, so the summing up went ahead.
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  #177  
Old 09-25-2018, 03:42 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Schwartz was taken seriously throughout what remains of the case files and contemporary records. Even did an investigation into the anti-Semitic remark about Lipski. Investigators obviously thought it was a lead.
They weren't going to dismiss Schwartz's account off-hand when he allegedly saw the victim being assaulted minutes before the murder. It's not like they had any stronger leads to go on.

Problem is, this alleged attack was not witnessed or corroborated by anyone else. Not even Fanny Mortimer next door heard a thing. None of the physical evidence supports Schwartz's account. A woman is slain next to a judeo-socialist club, a Jewish witness sees the victim being manhandled and pulled away from the yard, the suspect shouts an antisemitic slur, further distancing him from the IWEC. Very convenient. However, Stride was murdered inside the yard, and appears to have been taken unawares by her killer.
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Last edited by Harry D : 09-25-2018 at 03:45 AM.
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  #178  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:01 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Problem is, this alleged attack was not witnessed or corroborated by anyone else.
Which is good because only Schwartz, BS Man and female were about.

Quote:
Not even Fanny Mortimer next door heard a thing.
She wasn`t at her door the whole time.

Quote:
None of the physical evidence supports Schwartz's account.
Most of the physical evidence supports what Schwartz claims to have seen.
Which bits don`t ?

Quote:
A woman is slain next to a judeo-socialist club, a Jewish witness sees the victim being manhandled and pulled away from the yard,
Well... the police statement has her thrown to the pavement, and the newspaper account has her being pushed back into the alley

Quote:
the suspect shouts an antisemitic slur, further distancing him from the IWEC. Very convenient.
Or the slur was aimed at the very Jewish looking Schwartz

Quote:
However, Stride was murdered inside the yard,
Yes, looks like she was standing in the gateway and was pushed back into the passageway.

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and appears to have been taken unawares by her killer.
Yes, the actual throat cut could have taken her by surprise
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  #179  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:14 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Given the heightened suspicion of Jews in the area, it would not surprise me if Schwartz was a stooge who fabricated an attack on Stride to deflect suspicion from the IWEC.

Like I said, for a woman that was being roughed up and thrown to the floor, she had no abrasions or bruises to her hands or legs, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching her cachous when the killer struck. I guess Stride made up with her assailant and went into the unlit yard to meet her doom.
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  #180  
Old 09-25-2018, 04:31 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Like I said, for a woman that was being roughed up and thrown to the floor, she had no abrasions or bruises to her hands or legs, her clothes were undisturbed,
Yet, she was thrown or pushed to the floor at least once, and someone had pulled tightly on her neck scarf.

Quote:
and she was still clenching her cachous when the killer struck. I guess Stride made up with her assailant and went into the unlit yard to meet her doom.
Whatever the actual circumstances of her death, she was holding the cachous when her throat was cut.
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