Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - by MrBarnett 11 minutes ago.
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - by Debra A 32 minutes ago.
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - by MrBarnett 3 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - by Abby Normal 4 hours ago.
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - by MrBarnett 5 hours ago.
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - by MrBarnett 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: 36 Berner Street............... - (18 posts)
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - (5 posts)
Non-Fiction: "Ripperland" by Andrew Firth - (3 posts)
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (1 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Did Mary Kelly meet the Bethnal Green Botherer? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #161  
Old 09-24-2018, 05:04 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Blighty
Posts: 2,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
You ask why would she be standing at the gateway?[/url]
Listening to the singing in the club.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 09-24-2018, 06:10 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,358
Default

Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer. I think it was either a case of mistaken identity or there was an ulterior motive for Schwartz saying what he did. Perhaps Schwartz saw the same couple as James Brown?
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 09-24-2018, 07:18 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer. I think it was either a case of mistaken identity or there was an ulterior motive for Schwartz saying what he did. Perhaps Schwartz saw the same couple as James Brown?
I believe since its been established that Schwartz knew Wess, you could have your motive right there..helping a friend. IF Israel was there at all that night, it was far more likely he was attending the meeting then hanging around with the others, than he just happened by at such a fortuitous moment.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:10 AM
Observer Observer is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer. I think it was either a case of mistaken identity or there was an ulterior motive for Schwartz saying what he did. Perhaps Schwartz saw the same couple as James Brown?
Couldn't have been, he would have tripped over his long overcoat. Seriously though I considered this and threw it out because of the long overcoat as seen by Brown. The man Schwartz saw had no such coat on, I doubt he would have missed the fact that the man's long overcoat extended to his heels.

It's possible that the couple in question could have been the couple Mortimer talked to. They were stood " at the corner of the street", at the time. According to Mortimer she could not understand why they had not see the whole thing happen.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:29 AM
Observer Observer is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Stride had no defensive injuries, no bruises or abrasions, her clothes were undisturbed, and she was still clenching the cachous when she died. It's hard to believe that the same man witnessed by Schwartz manhandling her in the street could be the killer.
Indeed. Yet there are those that who will tell you here in this very Forum that it's entirely possible that she clung onto those cachous, and never split a single one. Pulled into the street thrown onto the ground, dragged into the yard, laid onto the ground, where her throat was cut. I don't think so.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:40 AM
Observer Observer is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I believe since its been established that Schwartz knew Wess, you could have your motive right there..helping a friend. IF Israel was there at all that night, it was far more likely he was attending the meeting then hanging around with the others, than he just happened by at such a fortuitous moment.
Established? Could you provide the details? You've been asked earlier to provide the details but it appears you've not done so. Apologies if you have provided the information in question
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 09-24-2018, 12:31 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,916
Default Timing

Timing is the most compelling evidence Stride was a JtR victim.

If you time a brisk walk from the site of Stride's murder just before she was found dead towards the city center you will be within visual looking distance of one Catherine Eddowes coming out of the drunk tank.

We know roughly what time Stride was murdered.
We know how long it takes to walk to an area around Mitre Square.
We know what time Eddowes came out of the drunk tank.

It is a mathematically sound convergence.

JtR leaving the site of Stride's murder, bumped into Eddowes. Simple as that. He didn't finish his signature with Stride and did it with Eddowes. Makes sense in criminal psychology.

So any alternative hypothesis, that they are not connected, has to write off that possible convergence as just a mere coincidence.

Are sleuths allowed to believe in coincidences?

Maybe the odd one. However if one's overarching theory needs lots of them, then the probability it is right, is extremely low.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 09-24-2018, 12:46 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bottesford, Leicestershire
Posts: 3,760
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Perhaps if the context was changed.
If we were to ask a group of East End prostitutes if they had ever been assaulted twice in fifteen minutes, do you think they all would say never?

Twice in two unrelated attacks? (Which these surely must have been if BS Man was not her killer).
__________________
Regards, Bridewell.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 09-24-2018, 12:48 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Bottesford, Leicestershire
Posts: 3,760
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
"Does it? In 30 years police service I never dealt with or heard of a person being subject to two separate and unrelated assaults in such a narrow time period. The likelihood, therefore, remains within the realm of the extremely improbable IMHO."

Hello Bridewell,

But Swanson, a veteran detective who would have been quite familiar with the ways of Whitechapel at the time, allows for the possibility of a second attacker in his report. It seems a reasonable assumption therefore that he was not speaking in an all things are possible sort of way but rather expressing the idea that it was within the realm of probability to some extent and needed to be considered.

c.d.
Swanson was quite right to consider anything that was within the bounds of possibility as this was. Doesn't make it probable though.
__________________
Regards, Bridewell.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 09-24-2018, 03:36 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 603
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The story Israel gave placed Liz Stride in the hands of a surly man, likely gentile, and being manhandled,...off the property. The inference there would be of course that this gentile thug then took Liz into the alley and killed her. That is, in essence, an exoneration of the anarchist Jewish men still in the club at the time.

I think the nature of the club, the reputation of it, and the fact that some of these very same members attack police with clubs the next spring, should influence ones thinking on just how benign these men were. Before Liz was killed the police thought of this place as an anarchists club. The natural thing would be to suspect their involvement when she is found dead on their property. Israel changed that.

I find it interesting that on the night that anti-Jewish sentiment was found written in chalk near Jewish dwellings that a woman is killed on property thought to be run by anarchist Jewish immigrants. The very target of the police suspicions to that date for the preceding murders...according to Anderson.
Hard for me to believe,if caught(Schwartz) lying,then it was much worse,layng down a suspicion on them (IWEC) for doing so.If they did not do it just tell what they knew,I think this is what happened.Unless one of their associate was responsible for the murder then it was worth it.

They were already subjected to Reid: "persons who had come into the yard and the members of the club were interrogated, their names and addresses taken, their pockets searched by the police, and their clothes and hands examined by the doctors.The people were twenty-eight in number. Each was dealt with separately, and they properly accounted for themselves."

So I do not see the point of sending Schwartz later on to lie.

----
__________________
Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
M. Pacana
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.