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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #1691  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:35 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Hutchinson had nowhere else to go and nothing else to do. He had to be somewhere and probably thought his best chance of a bed for the night was with MJK. That's not stalking behaviour unless there is evidence that he was doing the same thing every night - which there isn't.



Mizen claimed that Lechmere & Paul had told him another constable needed him in Bucks Row. The constable concerned denied even seeing them, never mind speaking to them. No discrepancy - Mizen was either mistaken or lying about what was said.
Hi bridewell
I agree. I think more than likely he was just looking for a place to crash. However, he followed mary around and then waited outside her place for almost an hour in the middle of the night on his own accord. Just happens on the night of her murder. Creepy or maybe bad luck? I dont know but to me its stalking behaviour, especially since theres no indication mary wanted anything to do with him, and basically blew him off so theres could be jeolousy in the mix too.

Re mizen. Probably mistaken, the other option lech lied. Its certainly not a fact mizen was lying or mistaken.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 09-21-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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  #1692  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:36 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Bowyer's police statement to Abberline was taken down in third-hand, so we cannot be absolutely sure whether it contains paraphrase by Abberline, which means the source should not be viewed as 'primary'. Yet, few would argue that it can be deemed reliable.
Any witness statement from a civilian witness contains the witness's account, but in the statement taker's words. If it were otherwise Hutchinson's statement might have read something along the lines of "I saw Mary on the night she died. She was with a dodgy-looking bloke in a fur-trimmed coat". A witness statement is a primary source paraphrase notwithstanding.
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  #1693  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:37 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Not at all.

Quite the opposite, apparently.

He was expressing regret that he didn’t see anyone in the court at that time, and that if he had seen someone, he might have noticed bloodstains on his person and been in a position to thwart his escape.
Honestly Ben, I don't know what you are talking about.

This is more of the article - he saw the man in question, he just wasn't aware at the time that this man would be viewed as the killer.

"Bowyer vistited that spot as late-or, rather, as early-as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. Mccarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denziens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning,while occassionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid." Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry" has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and If I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."

"if I had known he was there" - meaning if he had known the killer was "there", in this court...
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  #1694  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:40 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Once interpretation by a third party enters the story, that makes it a secondary source.
That makes it a second-hand account. If any account - whether first, second or third hand - appeared in a contemporary newspaper for the first time, then it's a primary source as defined by historians. Call it a "second-hand account" by all means, but don't call it a secondary source, because that's a term which means something very specific when one is dealing with historical materials. A secondary source would be a book or newspaper article produced after the event which quotes or interprets one or more primary sources.
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  #1695  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:42 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Indeed Ben
and in Bowyers official statement to authorities the only mention of seeing any kind of stranger was several days before the night of her murder.


This press story is probably a garbled account of that.
This you mean?

"Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer. He was, perhaps, 27 or 28 and had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat. He did not carry a bag."
Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.

What was official about that?
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  #1696  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:43 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi bridewell
I agree. I think more than likely he was just looking for a place to crash. However, he followed mary around and then waited outside her place for almost an hour in the middle of the night on his own accord. Just happens on the night of her murder. Creepy or maybe bad luck? I dont know but to me its stalking behaviour, especially since theres no indication mary wanted anything to do with him, and basically blew him off so theres could be jeolousy in the mix too.
Thanks, Abby.

By Hutchinson's account she tried to tap him up for sixpence. Given her line of work, that suggests he might have found a bed for the night if he'd been in funds, doesn't it?

Quote:
Re mizen. Probably mistaken, the other option lech lied. Its certainly not a fact mizen was lying or mistaken.
If Lechmere lied then so did the 'J' Division Pc John Neill, who claimed not to have seen or spoken to him. Why would he do that?
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Last edited by Bridewell : 09-21-2018 at 02:45 PM.
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  #1697  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:50 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
If the police were keystone cops.If not this kind of witness,his importance,if his account is true, will be retained.This was the big lead.
Have him notify police if he moved,give him rewards.Have him walk around the district more to spot the man.Use him in the Sadler case.
The case closed in 1892.But it did not happen because his testimony was dropped,forcing them to use a witness/Lawende who doubt he
could identify the "suspect" again.

---
This was at least 2 and a half years after the Kelly murder. You seriously think witnesses are expected to keep in touch with police for the rest of their lives?
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  #1698  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:51 PM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Is this the same story reported in the Western Mail of 12th November? In which case, it says the man Bowyer saw matched resembled the description given by the untrustworthy Matthew Packer:

"Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer."

Packer estimated the age of the man he allegedly saw at around 35, and he said that he looked like a clerk. Bowyer described a "rather smart" man in his late 20s, sporting white collar and cuffs and a black coat. It doesn't strike me that either was describing an Astrakhan-type figure, but a clerical worker.
The Western Mail was not a London paper, and the article conflicts with the Echo article, so which is the more likely to be an accurate?

The Stride murder was six weeks before. Is Bowyer likely to remember a description as given by Packer after that length of time? I think the Western Mail has got the facts wrong, and we just cant get away from primary and secondary can we

Bowyers story appeared in the Echo article dated Nov 14th

The Bowyer article did not appear in The Echo until after the inquest which was on Nov 12

Researchers should perhaps stop believing all they read in newspapers

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  #1699  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:57 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Any witness statement from a civilian witness contains the witness's account, but in the statement taker's words. If it were otherwise Hutchinson's statement might have read something along the lines of "I saw Mary on the night she died. She was with a dodgy-looking bloke in a fur-trimmed coat". A witness statement is a primary source paraphrase notwithstanding.
All the witness statements taken by Abberline on 9 Nov. in Millers Court were taken in first-hand, except that of Bowyer.
Bowyer's appears to have been the first statement taken by Abberline, after which he changed to first-hand recording.
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  #1700  
Old 09-21-2018, 03:00 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
That makes it a second-hand account. If any account - whether first, second or third hand - appeared in a contemporary newspaper for the first time, then it's a primary source as defined by historians. Call it a "second-hand account" by all means, but don't call it a secondary source, because that's a term which means something very specific when one is dealing with historical materials. A secondary source would be a book or newspaper article produced after the event which quotes or interprets one or more primary sources.
I used this source where it says once "interpretation" is used, the account is a secondary source.
https://sccollege.edu/Library/Pages/primarysources.aspx
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