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  #101  
Old 09-19-2018, 07:51 PM
harry harry is offline
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My dictionary states sex in exchange for money,but accepting that the word payment is also used,and that word,according to my dictionaty,is the act of paying,amount payed;reward,it rather broadens the range and number of women that can be classed as prostitutes.
Not that it affects my understanding,and I do not have to twist anything.What I do say is that there were alternnatives,on the nights those women in Whitechapel were killed,as to how rewards could be obtained or offered,and that didn't include prostitution.

My great grandmother was an unfortunate in the county of Dorset.She,along with her two daughters,one of whom was my grandmother,didn't starve or turn to prostitution.
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  #102  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:00 AM
Robert Robert is offline
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Harry I'm a bit sceptical that Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were trying to find cleaning jobs when they were killed.

There is, however, a curious thing about Kelly : according to GH, after she tried and failed to get sixpence out of him, Kelly walked up the road and Mr A tapped her on the shoulder. He approached her, apparently, and not the other way round.
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  #103  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:58 AM
harry harry is offline
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Robert,
You have a right to be skeptical on that count.My comment about Stride earning sixpence for cleaning is a reported occurance,I haven't applied it to anyone else.Your observatiom about aman approaching Kelly,and not the other way round might have a meaning,if it happened.

The offence of prostitution was a condition imposed by an act of parliament,and the words prostitute and prostitution were given a meaning.While the wording cannot be changed,the interpretation can,and it seems that is what the author is considering. I could be wrong.
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  #104  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:04 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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I have to say that if a woman sells her body for sex then she is, by definition, a prostitute. We can of course speculate on whether this was her sole source of income or, as it undoubtedly was for many, something that was resorted to in desperate times. We can also speculate on how often this situation occurred. By making these distinctions though we are not saying that a full-time prostitute was less of a person than a part time or occasional one. Of course they were women first and prostitutes second and should be treated with respect.

That said, it’s difficult to see what point Rubenhold is making (yes we have to wait for the book but she has made comments therefore she has to expect opinions and responses.) We know that books, articles and essays have been written about the victims. We know that research is ongoing into their lives. We all have sympathy for the unimaginable hardship of their lives and the horrible ways that their lives ended. I’m afraid though from Rubenhold’s comments it appears that she is suggesting otherwise. That we’ve collectively labelled them as mere ‘prostitutes’ and so unworthy of attention. This is plainly untrue. She implies that Ripperologist tend to ‘glorify’ the ripper. This is plainly untrue. She apparently holds anyone who has an interest in the case (that’s all of us) in such low esteem that she preemptively assumes that Paul Begg would give her an unfair review.

I agree that we should read her book. I certainly hope to. But I still say that her comments so far have not painted her in a very positive light. In fact I’d say that her comments so far have simply been controversy for publicity’s sake.
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Last edited by Herlock Sholmes : 09-20-2018 at 01:07 PM.
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  #105  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:17 PM
Ginger Ginger is offline
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Jack spent probably only a few hours out of his entire life killing and mutilating women. Would anyone argue that "murderer" would be an inappropriate way to describe him because his life wasn't confined only to murder?
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  #106  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:41 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger View Post
Jack spent probably only a few hours out of his entire life killing and mutilating women. Would anyone argue that "murderer" would be an inappropriate way to describe him because his life wasn't confined only to murder?
Good way of putting it.We are only interested in what they were doing when killed.Not the entire lifetime.

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  #107  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:30 AM
harry harry is offline
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Ginger,

The omly arguement I can give,is that Murderer is likely to remain a description far into the future,while prostitute is a description that is slowly being replaced by sex worker,and the industry,as a whole legitimised.How that reflects back into the past remains to be seen.
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  #108  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:47 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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How long before ‘murderer’ gets replaced with ‘population reducer?’
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  #109  
Old 09-21-2018, 03:18 AM
PaulB PaulB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
Good way of putting it.We are only interested in what they were doing when killed.Not the entire lifetime.

---
Actually, we are interested in the entire lifetime of the victims - or some of us are. For most people 'Jack the Ripper' is the mystery of the murderer's identity and the victims are of interest only for the clues they provide. But 'Jack the Ripper' is also a historical event and everything associated with it is of interest. And 'Jack the Ripper' is also a huge international phenomena that far, far exceeds the mystery of who he was, and the study of that, too, embraces everything that can be known about the events that created it.

But you are right, of course, that as far as Rubenhold's argument is concerned, it is what they were doing when they went with their murderer to the places where their bodies were found. Nobody can now know that, but the locations suggest prostitution and all but Eddowes are known to have prostituted themselves and may have been actively doing so up to and including when they were murdered.
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  #110  
Old 09-21-2018, 02:24 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
Actually, we are interested in the entire lifetime of the victims - or some of us are. For most people 'Jack the Ripper' is the mystery of the murderer's identity and the victims are of interest only for the clues they provide. But 'Jack the Ripper' is also a historical event and everything associated with it is of interest. And 'Jack the Ripper' is also a huge international phenomena that far, far exceeds the mystery of who he was, and the study of that, too, embraces everything that can be known about the events that created it.

But you are right, of course, that as far as Rubenhold's argument is concerned, it is what they were doing when they went with their murderer to the places where their bodies were found. Nobody can now know that, but the locations suggest prostitution and all but Eddowes are known to have prostituted themselves and may have been actively doing so up to and including when they were murdered.
Point taken.We all read about the victims or contemporary people,just the inquest alone covered a lot,for ex. Stride.My post was a reply to a post.What I was saying was the labeling of "prostitutes" covered what they were doing when lured into their murders.The label did not pertain to their entire lifetime.When they were with their sisters or friends,or sweeping the floor can you call them prostitutes? Kindof this is a "perceiving" problem,one stroke covers all or in shorter batches/times/incident.Sort of an ex.,generally in court,unless the credibility of the defendant is at stake,previous convictions are not allowed in court cause it could prejudice the jury,forcing them to focus only on the crime/incident.

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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
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Last edited by Varqm : 09-21-2018 at 02:44 PM.
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