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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #131  
Old 09-20-2018, 08:56 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
But parcel man was seen with stride before Bs man. Are you sugesting she left parcel man, got in the squabble with bs man, and then gets back with parcel man?
You are describing two different men here. I thought you were of an opinion that Stride was with the same man from Best, and Gardener, through to Schwartz.

I realise that witness testimony can cause great confusion regarding identity. Best described the man he had seen with Stride as well dressed, with a billycock hat, thick black mustache. They were adamant that the woman was Stride.

Marshal seems to be describing the same man, but testified that he wore a peaked cap, and looked middle aged.

PC Smith described a young man late twenties, wearing a dark overcoat, and a deerstalker hat. Most importantly he was carrying a parcel.

Best Gardener, and Marshal were adamant that the man they saw did not carry a parcel. Confusing? Most certainly.

I believe Stride was with at least two men that night, Marshall Best and Gardener, describing the same man, and PC Smith another different man. and was possibly assaulted by a third, namely BS man.

Apologies to the old timers here, this ground has been covered many times here here in this Forum.
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  #132  
Old 09-20-2018, 10:43 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I guess you may missed my earlier post. If youve got your hand over a cut neck oozing blood, the blood would probably flow between your fingers and then seep down the back of your hand.

I see your point though-yes if he had blood on his fingers and took her pulse, i could see that also making oblong blood spots on the back of her hand.

If we knew the orientation of the oblong blood spots though we could know which is correct.

Down the back of the hand vertical, im right. Crosswise, your right.
It strikes me that Phillips was being particular in pointing out the blood stains were on the back of the hand and on the wrist.
If there had been blood in the palm of her hand it would have indicated that she grabbed at her own throat, but he didn't mention that, so I guess her palm was clean of blood.
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  #133  
Old 09-20-2018, 10:50 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Israel Schwartz offered nothing but a demonstration of his allegiance to his friend, Wess, and his support of the anarchist jews that gathered there. He was very likely a member. Like Goldstein was. Or Eagle.
Where do we learn that Schwartz knew Wess (West)?


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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Elizabeth Stride is added to the Canonicals solely on the basis of a latter murder that more resembled "ripper" work, and the fact she had a history of soliciting in her past. And of course the geographical element.

There is no evidence including the physical wounds, which can be used to assume that Liz was also killed by Annie and Polly's killer.
Agreed in principal, but it's not certain.
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  #134  
Old 09-20-2018, 11:45 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Where do we learn that Schwartz knew Wess (West)?
I believe that Debra Arif found that info a few years back. they apparently knew each other from Paris.
If you consider this then you must see the logic Ive been espousing....Wess, Schwartz, Diemshutz and Eagle gave statements that helped the club create the impression no member saw anything or anyone. Even though we have Lave and Eagle in the passageway at the same time and they didn't see each other, and Eagle arriving when Schwartz said BSM was manhandling Liz.

Schwartz might have just added the Lipski for effect...no-one else heard it ,and it suggests Liz was last seen with a anti-Semitic local.
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  #135  
Old 09-20-2018, 12:01 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post

I realise that witness testimony can cause great confusion regarding identity. Best described the man he had seen with Stride as well dressed, with a billycock hat, thick black mustache. They were adamant that the woman was Stride.

Marshal seems to be describing the same man, but testified that he wore a peaked cap, and looked middle aged.

PC Smith described a young man late twenties, wearing a dark overcoat, and a deerstalker hat. Most importantly he was carrying a parcel.

Best Gardener, and Marshal were adamant that the man they saw did not carry a parcel. Confusing? Most certainly.

I believe Stride was with at least two men that night, Marshall Best and Gardener, describing the same man, and PC Smith another different man. and was possibly assaulted by a third, namely BS man.

I've always been interested as to why the hat worn by the Smith suspect changed.
The first police circular across the various stations was purloined by the press and published on Oct. 1st.

"The following is a description of a man stated to have been seen in company with the woman murdered in Berner-street, and for whom the police are looking:-Age 28; height 5ft. 8in.; complexion dark; no whiskers; black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; carried a newspaper parcel; was of respectable appearance."

PC Smith did not testify until Friday the 5th Oct.
Press versions of how he described the hat do vary.
The above police circular describes a "hard felt hat", which is not a deerstalker. Yet, elsewhere we read....
Daily Telegraph - He wore a dark felt deerstalker's hat.
Daily News - He had a hard felt hat on
Morning Advertiser - He wore a hard felt dark hat
Times - He had on a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour
Morning Post - ...wore a hard felt dark deerstalker hat

As you know a deerstalker will fold up and can be put in a coat pocket. They are of soft material. A hard felt hat is more like a Wideawake or Billycock, both based on the Bowler style.

I'm inclined to believe the police circular. That is not to say Smith did not say "deerstalker" at the inquest, but he also had to say "hard felt hat" for the police circular. That detail would not come from anyone else.

What caused him to call the hat a "deerstalker" five days after the incident?

There was a style of hard felt hat that almost resembled the sloped peak of a deerstalker in profile.



If the word "deerstalker" was in error, then the Smith suspect becomes more like the man described by Best & Gardner. I understand there is a difference between the type of moustache, but I'm not so sure that would be a deal breaker.
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  #136  
Old 09-20-2018, 12:06 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
You are describing two different men here. I thought you were of an opinion that Stride was with the same man from Best, and Gardener, through to Schwartz.

I realise that witness testimony can cause great confusion regarding identity. Best described the man he had seen with Stride as well dressed, with a billycock hat, thick black mustache. They were adamant that the woman was Stride.

Marshal seems to be describing the same man, but testified that he wore a peaked cap, and looked middle aged.

PC Smith described a young man late twenties, wearing a dark overcoat, and a deerstalker hat. Most importantly he was carrying a parcel.

Best Gardener, and Marshal were adamant that the man they saw did not carry a parcel. Confusing? Most certainly.

I believe Stride was with at least two men that night, Marshall Best and Gardener, describing the same man, and PC Smith another different man. and was possibly assaulted by a third, namely BS man.

Apologies to the old timers here, this ground has been covered many times here here in this Forum.
Hi Observer
I was simply trying to get clarification on your scenario:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer
20 minutes to half an hour. This of course a rough estimate. I wouldn't personally use the Doctor's estimate to determine time of death, but admittedly he's in the range. If Schwartz's man merely pulled Stride about, and threw her to the pavement, and then immediately left the scene, and if Deimshutz disturbed the killer at 1:00 a.m. then we have about 12 minutes for another assailant to enter the scene, win Strides confidence, take her into the yard and kill her. I believe it's possible that this man was the man as seen by PC Smith. The man with the parcel.
so do you think parcel man was her killer?

if you do, she would have to been with parcel man, then assaulted by BS man (he then leaves), then killed by parcel man.

wheres parcel man when shes being assaulted by BS man then?
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 09-20-2018 at 12:09 PM.
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  #137  
Old 09-20-2018, 12:23 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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The main thing about the different description hats:

the peaked cap man made an impression on Abberline (see my sig).

none of the other types of hats.


Marshall, Schwartz and Lawende and company, anon church street sighting all describe peaked cap-"like something a sailor would wear".


PC smith and Mrs. long describe a deer stalker. It may be the same hat.


to me the most likely and simplist explanation is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event- and PC smith was slighlty off and best and gardner were just off.


we have Abberline who goes with peaked cap-Ill go with Abberline on this one.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #138  
Old 09-20-2018, 12:54 PM
Busy Beaver Busy Beaver is offline
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Perhaps the killer changed hats to confuse every one.
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  #139  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:44 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Perhaps the killer changed hats to confuse every one.
It's not that unlikey. People weren't complete morons in 1888.
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  #140  
Old 09-20-2018, 01:46 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Perhaps the killer changed hats to confuse every one.
I think Stride may have gotten a little suspicious.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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