Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 7 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Sam Flynn 17 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 23 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Fisherman 39 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by caz 1 hour and 23 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (47 posts)
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - (12 posts)
General Discussion: A broken down masher - (5 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (4 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - (3 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #121  
Old 09-19-2018, 05:21 PM
Observer Observer is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
I get the about five minutes from the fact that the incident witnessed by Schwartz was about 12.45am and the body was discovered about 1am. That's a total time period of 15 minutes from start to finish. As the putative second assailant got clean away I think about 5 minutes is reasonable for the gap between the end of the first assault and the beginning of a second. That's my line of thought. If you think I'm a long way out, I'd be interested in knowing why.

How long did Blackwell think Stride had been dead when he arrived at 1.16am? (Sorry - don't have my copy of The Ultimate with me but wasn't it about 20 minutes?).
20 minutes to half an hour. This of course a rough estimate. I wouldn't personally use the Doctor's estimate to determine time of death, but admittedly he's in the range. If Schwartz's man merely pulled Stride about, and threw her to the pavement, and then immediately left the scene, and if Deimshutz disturbed the killer at 1:00 a.m. then we have about 12 minutes for another assailant to enter the scene, win Strides confidence, take her into the yard and kill her. I believe it's possible that this man was the man as seen by PC Smith. The man with the parcel.

Last edited by Observer : 09-19-2018 at 05:34 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 09-19-2018, 05:37 PM
Observer Observer is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,654
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Because he was a risk taker and thought he'd get away with it, as indeed (if he was the killer) he did.
Then, if he was JTR, why did he not mutilate the body?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 09-19-2018, 06:38 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
If you are startled by a slice to the throat, without thinking you would grab your neck with your hand. Any blood would then be in the palm of the hand. This was stated by Phillips to be on the back of her hand and on her wrist.
More consistent as evidence of transfer from another hand, the wrist is where you feel for the pulse.
I guess you may missed my earlier post. If youve got your hand over a cut neck oozing blood, the blood would probably flow between your fingers and then seep down the back of your hand.

I see your point though-yes if he had blood on his fingers and took her pulse, i could see that also making oblong blood spots on the back of her hand.

If we knew the orientation of the oblong blood spots though we could know which is correct.

Down the back of the hand vertical, im right. Crosswise, your right.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 09-19-2018, 06:42 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer View Post
20 minutes to half an hour. This of course a rough estimate. I wouldn't personally use the Doctor's estimate to determine time of death, but admittedly he's in the range. If Schwartz's man merely pulled Stride about, and threw her to the pavement, and then immediately left the scene, and if Deimshutz disturbed the killer at 1:00 a.m. then we have about 12 minutes for another assailant to enter the scene, win Strides confidence, take her into the yard and kill her. I believe it's possible that this man was the man as seen by PC Smith. The man with the parcel.
But parcel man was seen with stride before Bs man. Are you sugesting she left parcel man, got in the squabble with bs man, and then gets back with parcel man?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 09-19-2018, 06:48 PM
harry harry is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,918
Default

I doubt it would be classed as a case of assault,if BS was first accosted by Stride,and in warding her off she fell to the ground. What is evident,to me at least,is that Schwartz,being behind BS at the initial confrontation ,would not have been in a posistion to clearly observe the first contact.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:40 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 345
Default

Hi Abby, Yes blood probably would have oozed through her fingers to the back of the hand if she held it to her neck, but the blood would still be on the palm and the rain couldn't have washed it away because her arm was across her chest with her hand resting on it, which would almost certainly mean palm side down.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 09-20-2018, 04:59 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Hi Abby, Yes blood probably would have oozed through her fingers to the back of the hand if she held it to her neck, but the blood would still be on the palm and the rain couldn't have washed it away because her arm was across her chest with her hand resting on it, which would almost certainly mean palm side down.
Hi DK
Yes I see what your saying. its another mystery.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 09-20-2018, 05:05 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry View Post
I doubt it would be classed as a case of assault,if BS was first accosted by Stride,and in warding her off she fell to the ground. What is evident,to me at least,is that Schwartz,being behind BS at the initial confrontation ,would not have been in a posistion to clearly observe the first contact.
Schwartz was following behind BS man and saw him basically assault Stride immediately.

which would suggest to me one of two things. either he just came upon her, they were total strangers, and he didn't like her being there for some reason.

or he had previously contact with her and was pissed off about something that happened earlier.

I tend toward the latter.

and BTW, being solicited by a woman isn't an excuse for assaulting her. the actions Schwartz described is an assault. period.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 09-20-2018, 05:23 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,426
Default

IF the police had a believable, or rather believed, witness statement that was available before Strides Inquest that placed Liz Stride in the hands of someone she is seen being manhandled by just minutes before the estimate time of her throat cut, it would have been submitted to or presented at the Inquest.

It wasn't.

Israel Schwartz offered nothing but a demonstration of his allegiance to his friend, Wess, and his support of the anarchist jews that gathered there. He was very likely a member. Like Goldstein was. Or Eagle.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 09-20-2018, 07:37 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,426
Default

Elizabeth Stride is added to the Canonicals solely on the basis of a latter murder that more resembled "ripper" work, and the fact she had a history of soliciting in her past. And of course the geographical element.

There is no evidence including the physical wounds, which can be used to assume that Liz was also killed by Annie and Polly's killer.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.