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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #91  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:34 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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So lets look at it another way.

After getting attacked in the street by one man within in 10-15 minutes shes with another man, peacefully with cashoo in hand in the yard, presumably for a sex act, evethiugh she spent considerable amount of time with the man who just attacked her not going in a secluded place for a sex act, where she is then attacked by the new guy and murdered?

Yeah right.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 09-18-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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  #92  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:37 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
So lets look at it another way.

After getting attacked in the street by one man within in 10-15 minutes shes with another man, peacefully with cashoo in hand in the yard, where she is then attacked and murdered?

Yeah right.
How do you know she was attacked? That is not a word Schwartz used. Neither did he use the word assault or vicious. He only saw a woman being pushed.

I think using the word attacked is influencing your thinking.

c.d.
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  #93  
Old 09-18-2018, 03:02 PM
Observer Observer is offline
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Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
How do you know she was attacked? That is not a word Schwartz used. Neither did he use the word assault or vicious. He only saw a woman being pushed.
No he did not. It's possible that the assault as witnessed by Schwartz, was no more than a tanked up local taking exception to Liz Stride propositioning him. Lets not forget he initially pulled her into the street. Was this an attempt to eject her up the road, and out of the street? Stride resisted so he threw her down onto the ground. This would also explain why Stride didn't cry out loudly, she realised she was in the wrong, and didn't want to draw attention to the incident. Just a thought of course.
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  #94  
Old 09-18-2018, 03:11 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Agreed, Observer. If you change attacked to pushed the incident can be seen in a whole different light. Whitechapel was a rough place filled with drunk workingmen. Is it really so far fetched that a woman out by herself late at night right after the pubs closed got hassled a bit by some drunk?

c.d.
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  #95  
Old 09-18-2018, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Agreed, Observer. If you change attacked to pushed the incident can be seen in a whole different light. Whitechapel was a rough place filled with drunk workingmen. Is it really so far fetched that a woman out by herself late at night right after the pubs closed got hassled a bit by some drunk?

c.d.
Par for the course I'd say.
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  #96  
Old 09-18-2018, 03:37 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Observer View Post
Par for the course I'd say.
Hi observer and cd
Absolutely. On its own. I totally agree.
But shes found with a slit throat minutes later a few feet away in the yard.

So i would ask you both:
What was she doing that night?
Was she actively solicitating?
Who was the man marshall saw?
Who was the man diemshitz saw?
Were they the same man?
Was she attacked by another man and killed after BS man?
Was this man a new client she just solicitataed?
Was this new man the ripper?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #97  
Old 09-18-2018, 03:57 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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I think the question of whether or not she was actively soliciting (solicitating is not a word) is somewhat moot. Even if she was not actively soliciting we have no way of knowing her reaction if approached by a customer. I think she was alone at some point late in the evening so whether she had been with a man or men in a date like setting earlier is also somewhat moot.

I think her encounter with the BS man was just a little street scuffle. I think her killer came along a few minutes later. I think he was a client and I think he was Jack.

The timing for another killer other than the BS man is cutting it close (no pun intended). But a second killer eliminates all the red flags associated with the BS man. Swanson allowed for the possibility of a second killer in his report. I think that is what happened.

c.d.
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  #98  
Old 09-18-2018, 04:19 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
I think the question of whether or not she was actively soliciting (solicitating is not a word) is somewhat moot. Even if she was not actively soliciting we have no way of knowing her reaction if approached by a customer. I think she was alone at some point late in the evening so whether she had been with a man or men in a date like setting earlier is also somewhat moot.

I think her encounter with the BS man was just a little street scuffle. I think her killer came along a few minutes later. I think he was a client and I think he was Jack.

The timing for another killer other than the BS man is cutting it close (no pun intended). But a second killer eliminates all the red flags associated with the BS man. Swanson allowed for the possibility of a second killer in his report. I think that is what happened.

c.d.
Fair enough cd. You could be right. It would explain it all quite simply.

I just see too much a coincidence that the all the men seen with her that night were wearing a peaked cap, that marshalls man and diemshitz man were also described so similarily, besides the peaked cap, that lawende and company also describe a similar man. And the anon sighting in church street also. It seems the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night to me.

Plus, as you say, the timing so tight for another man to come along and also that shes assaulted twice. And that one has to come up with a totally new man, one apparently never seen, to be her killer. Especially when we have bs man, who not only matches descriptions of the witnesses that night, but also generally of the ripper, whos seen assualting the victim shortly before shes found dead.

But again, to be totally honest, if it wasnt for peaked cap man matching pretty mutch all the descriptions, i would probably agree with your idea as most probable.
And of course, i also agree with you that strides killer was the ripper.

Amd thanks for the correction on the word soliciting. : )
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 09-18-2018 at 04:25 PM.
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  #99  
Old 09-18-2018, 04:22 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Hello Abby,

You are still using the term "assaulting." Are you sure that is correct?

c.d.
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  #100  
Old 09-18-2018, 04:41 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post

I think her encounter with the BS man was just a little street scuffle. I think her killer came along a few minutes later. I think he was a client and I think he was Jack.
Possibly Stride was not alone in the gateway, she was with Parcel-man. She was with him just minutes before, but on the other side of the street.

BS-man passed bye and suspected what they were up to, so he grabbed her pulling/pushing her down, as if to say 'we don't want your sort around here'.

This was the altercation witnessed by Schwartz, while Parcel-man was standing back out of sight in the shadows. Schwartz walked away diagonally across the road, his attention was on the scuffle unfolding in the gateway, not on anyone standing in the shadows.

If this is how events unfolded, Parcel-man may have been Stride's killer.

If BS-man was not her killer, then we have to believe a second man came on the scene unknown to everyone. Or, one of the men already present was the killer.
For me the choices are between Pipeman or Parcel-man. Yet we are told Pipeman followed Schwartz away from the scene, which leaves the question, what happened to Parcel-man, and was he the only man left with Stride?
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