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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

View Poll Results: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?
Yes 65 83.33%
No 9 11.54%
Undecided 4 5.13%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

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  #431  
Old 09-14-2018, 07:44 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Mrs Maxwell describes her as a little woman.
Well, she described someone as a little woman; whether she was "our" Mary Kelly is another matter. Interestingly, the East London Observer of 17th November 1888 describes Kelly as a "blonde, of medium height", although it has to be said that this report isn't entirely error-free (e.g. it says that Kelly lived in the front ground floor room).
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  #432  
Old 09-14-2018, 07:59 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Height and age did not matter.Nov 8-9 was the first time since October
they did not have patrols,Dorset St in particular,because of the Mayor's show.She was "available".Mary was killed lying down, Phillips:"cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. "
Harvey left,Kelly was alone Nov. 7-8 at night.

---
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  #433  
Old 09-14-2018, 08:59 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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I think her descriptions/height/size varies widely-but the one thing that seems in common she was attractive and had red hair.

from the horrendous photos to me though she does not look like a big women.
Especially If you notice her wrists, arm and ankle looks pretty skinny-to me anyway.
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  #434  
Old 09-14-2018, 10:05 AM
AuroraSarintacos AuroraSarintacos is offline
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Ok, Karl, what part of my post confuses you? I think I stated my opinion in a reasonable and understandable way.

So, your assumption is that because she was "taller" and "younger" the killer must have been hesitant to attack her or not even bother?

This is a disorganized, opportunistic killer. I do not think he would have cared that much had Ms. Kelly been of a larger size; he wanted a woman to kill. She is a woman, was possibly drunk, and the description of the killer, if it was the killer, was described as "stout" - either he was well built or strong looking.

It doesn't take much to overpower an unexpected woman, especially in a very sudden, quick, violent fashion which is, in my opinion, how he attacked. Also, where is your evidence that she was "very big" ? Was Annie Chapman not also a "big" woman? What do you mean by this? She was described as being "rather stout" which I believe, in this case, means rather fat.

There is no defining correlation between height, age, or weight between the majority of the victims. The thing that ties them together is the fact that they were readily available.

Jack, perhaps, did not have to solicit conversation. The prostitutes possibly did that for him.

And Karl, while you may not believe it does not stem from sexism, this opinion of Kelly being the main target is none the less biased and unwarranted. Please correct me if I am wrong but has someone on this chat previously mentioned that they believe Ms. Kelly was murdered and mutilated beyond recognition so that she wouldn't be able to be identified and therefore "traced" back to her killer? That she was the "main" target all along? And, please correct me once again, but did they also not state that Mr. McCarthy, her landlord, apparently knew who the killer was, and that he was walking around the court of something? Yeah. Ok.

So, please, excuse me, but that seems to be placing a lot of blame on the poor dead woman to which I can not abide by.

Last edited by AuroraSarintacos : 09-14-2018 at 10:21 AM.
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  #435  
Old 09-14-2018, 01:35 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuroraSarintacos View Post
Ok, Karl, what part of my post confuses you? I think I stated my opinion in a reasonable and understandable way.
How odd, that's precisely what I thought when I read your previous post.


Quote:
So, your assumption is that because she was "taller" and "younger" the killer must have been hesitant to attack her or not even bother?
It would mean she'd be much less likely to be targeted by someone who had hitherto consistently gone for middle-aged women who were shorter than himself.


Quote:
This is a disorganized, opportunistic killer. I do not think he would have cared that much had Ms. Kelly been of a larger size;
Of course he would - precisely because he was opportunistic. Predators always are. Weak prey means opportunity. Strong prey, not so much. Moreover, Mary was described as a woman of beauty - such could not be said for any of the other victims, which itself suggests that their killer was of such an appearance or countenance that fairer women - who had the luxury of being more picky with their clients - didn't trust.

Also, if by "disorganised" you mean to say he would be less discerning of what victims he chose, then that strengthens my argument. Because in those cases, he picks his victims not by planning, but by instinct - and instinct would drive him towards targets which would appear to be easily overcome.


Quote:
he wanted a woman to kill. She is a woman, was possibly drunk, and the description of the killer, if it was the killer, was described as "stout" - either he was well built or strong looking.
He was also described as not very tall.


Quote:
It doesn't take much to overpower an unexpected woman, especially in a very sudden, quick, violent fashion which is, in my opinion, how he attacked. Also, where is your evidence that she was "very big" ? Was Annie Chapman not also a "big" woman?
No she wasn't. She was shorter than her killer. A big waistline, maybe, but here's the thing about height advantage: if you choke someone from the front, you can use your own body weight to push them down if you are taller. If you are shorter, you cannot - you would then have to rely on getting them off balance first. If you go for the throat the first thing you do, from the front, you are not likely to succeed even against a weaker victim if you are significantly shorter.


Quote:
What do you mean by this? She was described as being "rather stout" which I believe, in this case, means rather fat.
Yes, but with shorter height she has less leverage with which to use that to her advantage.


Quote:
There is no defining correlation between height, age, or weight between the majority of the victims.
Yes there is. If we accept all five canonicals as the work of the same killer, then four out of five certainly constitutes a majority. All except Mary were middle-aged women who were shorter than their attacker.


Quote:
The thing that ties them together is the fact that they were readily available.
Even that doesn't fit. We don't even know when Mary was killed, or if she indeed was readily available. That is just an assumption on your part. She could just as easily have been killed by someone she knew, and might not have been hooking at all that night.

Quote:
And Karl, while you may not believe it does not stem from sexism, this opinion of Kelly being the main target is none the less biased and unwarranted. Please correct me if I am wrong but has someone on this chat previously mentioned that they believe Ms. Kelly was murdered and mutilated beyond recognition so that she wouldn't be able to be identified and therefore "traced" back to her killer? That she was the "main" target all along?
I believe that's richardnunweek's hypothesis, but I do not buy into that at all myself. Don't know why you bring it up, really.


Quote:
And, please correct me once again, but did they also not state that Mr. McCarthy, her landlord, apparently knew who the killer was, and that he was walking around the court of something? Yeah. Ok.
That would be richardnunweek again. Nothing to do with what I believe.


Quote:
So, please, excuse me, but that seems to be placing a lot of blame on the poor dead woman to which I can not abide by.
Even with richardnunweek's hypothesis, I fail to see how MJK is in any way, shape or form being blamed. He just said she was targeted, but has not said anything suggesting she deserved it somehow.
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  #436  
Old 09-14-2018, 01:38 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I think her descriptions/height/size varies widely-but the one thing that seems in common she was attractive and had red hair.

from the horrendous photos to me though she does not look like a big women.
Especially If you notice her wrists, arm and ankle looks pretty skinny-to me anyway.
True - the contemporary illustration of MJK portrays her as rather plump, but I just don't see that in that crime scene photo - mutilations notwithstanding.
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  #437  
Old 09-14-2018, 01:43 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Good point, Karl. I don't know off the top of my head what the source (if any) of that nugget of info is; perhaps someone will enlighten us.
Not sure if it's elsewhere too, but the height of 5'7" was given in the Thanet Advertiser 17 Nov, possibly provided by Mrs Carthy?

"The unfortunate victim is described as being a woman about 25 years of age, 5ft 7in in height, rather stout, with blue eyes, fair complexion, and a very good head of hair."

Mrs Maxwell also calls her "somewhat stout", but Mrs Prater and an un-named source say she was "tall and slim"
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  #438  
Old 09-14-2018, 01:47 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
Height and age did not matter.Nov 8-9 was the first time since October
they did not have patrols,Dorset St in particular,because of the Mayor's show.She was "available".Mary was killed lying down, Phillips:"cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. "
Harvey left,Kelly was alone Nov. 7-8 at night.

---
Here's the thing about availability, though: there were lots of other available prostitutes in the area, as well. Women who more closely matched the previous victims would not be in short supply. Another thing to note is that Mary seems to have undressed herself and neatly folded her clothes. In no other case did the killer wait for the victim to undress, nor did he even seem sexually interested in them at all. On the contrary, he seems to have wanted to kill them at the very first opportunity, and only then gone to work. He was more interested in seeing their insides than their nude forms. If the same killer killed MJK, why not attack her while she was undressing? Taking her boots off, for example. But all the while Mary undressed, she either trusted the man enough to have her back turned - which she wouldn't if he were a stranger. Or she was facing him the whole time, in which she would have plenty of time to regard the face of the man who was soon to kill her. Either way, it just doesn't fit with the same mentality of the man who sex-lessly murdered the other women.

Last edited by Karl : 09-14-2018 at 01:49 PM.
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  #439  
Old 09-14-2018, 02:04 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Not sure if it's elsewhere too, but the height of 5'7" was given in the Thanet Advertiser 17 Nov, possibly provided by Mrs Carthy?

"The unfortunate victim is described as being a woman about 25 years of age, 5ft 7in in height, rather stout, with blue eyes, fair complexion, and a very good head of hair."

Mrs Maxwell also calls her "somewhat stout", but Mrs Prater and an un-named source say she was "tall and slim"
Maxwell probably never saw her-she had someone else who she mistook for mary

Prater lived above mary, knew her well, saw the body in the room, spoke to her a lot. went to her funeral.
added to that the other descriptions of her as attractive and the photos which show not a stout or plump woman.


id go with prater.


forget about Maxwell-just another worthless "witness" that does nothing but muddy the water.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 09-14-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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  #440  
Old 09-14-2018, 02:50 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi .
For the record I am not suggesting that Mary Kelly was definitely targeted, only speculating , using hearsay, mixed with what is known.
There is a lot of coincidences, that suggest she may have been sought after far too many to go into here,
The truth is no one has a clue who Jack was, his motive, or his demise.
I have stuck with Casebook for many years, and covered many angles, thoroughly enjoyed it, and hope we all persevere.
Regards Richard.

Last edited by richardnunweek : 09-14-2018 at 02:54 PM.
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