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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #311  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:28 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Where Mrs Long actually was when she heard the clock is also not clear.

"I knew the time, because I heard the brewer's clock strike half-past five just before I got to the street."
Daily Telegraph, 20 Sept.

"It was about 5:30. She was certain of the time, as the brewers' clock had just struck that time when she passed 29, Hanbury-street."
Times, 20 Sept.
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  #312  
Old 09-13-2018, 04:39 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Yeah exactly.How many blocks? But I'll believe it more if Long heard the Spitalfields Church clock.I believe in the theory Long heard the clock at 5:15 AM instead of 5:30 AM before reaching 29 Hanbury.That is why Long's sighting,"seen the deceased in the mortuary, and I am sure the woman that I saw in Hanbury-street was the deceased", of Chapman/Killer at 5:16 AM-5;18 AM made sense,then 1-2 minutes later the couple went into the yard.At 5:20 AM. Cadosch,who was checking the time constantly not to be late for work,heard the "No" and at 5:24 AM the fall against the fence.Probably took 6-8 minutes to do the job like Eddowes's murder.
It's either the "No" and the fall against the fence was/were someone/people who refused to testify or the murder could have also occurred at past 5:31 AM per Long.John Davies woke up at 5:45 AM..It's hard for me to believe the former though.

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Last edited by Varqm : 09-13-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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  #313  
Old 09-14-2018, 07:41 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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If Long was within a few buildings away from the corner of Brick Lane and Hanbury St.,within hearing distance of the Spitalfields church clock,then when she heard the brewery clock the church clock would have also sounded at the same time.I think it would have been mentioned,5:15 AM or 5:30 AM.Something was wrong with the brewery clock,it's sound was not 5:15 AM or 5:30 AM. maybe past those times,she did not have to hear the church clock.
Or Long was not within hearing distance of the Spitalfields church clock when she heard the brewery clock.This depends on how far did the Spitalfields church clock sounded,
So she then walked a few minutes to the corner of Brick Lane and Hanbury St..which would have added to 5:15 AM or 5:30AM..

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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
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Last edited by Varqm : 09-14-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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  #314  
Old 09-14-2018, 08:53 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Bear in mind that Elizabeth Long's address has been misreported in most 'Ripper' books; if she lived on Church Street, Whitechapel Road, she would have had no need to walk up Brick Lane or Hanbury Street to reach the market--it would have been in the opposite direction. So she obviously lived in either Church Row or Church Street, Bethnal Green, and was thus walking south when she heard the Brewer's clock behind her.

As flippantly as it is dismissed, I have to admit that Fisherman makes a reasonable point; unless she was a complete idiot, she had to have a reason for believing she could distinguish between the chimes of 5:15 and 5:30; it would have been utterly stupid of her to insist on one time rather than the other if the clock didn't differentiate, and she must have been familiar with it.
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  #315  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:33 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Yes otherwise where did she entered Hanbury street going to the market? And the couple was in the right side. Long: "On the right-hand side, the same side as the house, I saw a man and a woman standing on the pavement talking." So Bricklane made sense.
From what I heard and read clocks chimes differently if 1st quarter,half an hour and hour.The brewery clock and Spitalfields clock would still have sounded at the same time or almost the same time.no matter what the sound was.Maybe she had difficulty in hearing,but she heard the brewery clock.

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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
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Last edited by Varqm : 09-14-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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  #316  
Old 09-14-2018, 08:51 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post

As flippantly as it is dismissed, I have to admit that Fisherman makes a reasonable point; unless she was a complete idiot, she had to have a reason for believing she could distinguish between the chimes of 5:15 and 5:30; it would have been utterly stupid of her to insist on one time rather than the other if the clock didn't differentiate, and she must have been familiar with it.
The quarter-hour chimes were all different at local churches when I was a kid. They had to be for the very reason being made here - people had to know the difference across the audible range, obviously out of sight of the clock. Plus, not all churches had clocks, so far more people would hear the time than would see the time.

I'm more inclined to accept that each quarter-hour clock chime was easily distinguishable, than Mrs Long correctly recognised Chapman. After all, Long had never seen the woman before, and the body she saw in the mortuary was likely not clothed but covered by a linen sheet, only exposing the face.
So, if Long was correct about the time, then she dismissed herself as a witness, in my opinion.
However, I realize to take that view places a great deal on the evidence of Cadosch, which may not be warranted.
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  #317  
Old 09-14-2018, 10:09 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
The quarter-hour chimes were all different at local churches when I was a kid. They had to be for the very reason being made here - people had to know the difference across the audible range, obviously out of sight of the clock. Plus, not all churches had clocks, so far more people would hear the time than would see the time.

I'm more inclined to accept that each quarter-hour clock chime was easily distinguishable, than Mrs Long correctly recognised Chapman. After all, Long had never seen the woman before, and the body she saw in the mortuary was likely not clothed but covered by a linen sheet, only exposing the face.
So, if Long was correct about the time, then she dismissed herself as a witness, in my opinion.
However, I realize to take that view places a great deal on the evidence of Cadosch, which may not be warranted.
In your case how far would the church clock chime be audible?

---
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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
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  #318  
Old 09-15-2018, 01:20 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
In your case how far would the church clock chime be audible?

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I just used Google Earth to look down on the part of town I lived in when a kid.
According to G.E., the nearest church to my house was 265 meters, or 289 yds, in a direct line from my house.
Never once did we hear church bells.
The town market place was 100 yds nearer to the church than our house and you could clearly hear the bells from there.

Much depends on the height of buildings between you and the church, and the time of day, as noise carries further at night due to less noise pollution.

Here is a link that offers a range of opinions...
https://little-details.livejournal.com/1945635.html
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Last edited by Wickerman : 09-15-2018 at 01:24 PM.
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  #319  
Old 09-15-2018, 01:35 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
According to G.E., the nearest church to my house was 265 meters, or 289 yds, in a direct line from my house.
Never once did we hear church bells.
I live one and a quarter miles from my town's church clock, whose Westminster chimes I can hear from my back garden. They're not loud, admittedly, but I can and do hear them frequently.
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  #320  
Old 09-15-2018, 01:39 PM
Ginger Ginger is offline
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As a child, I lived 0.85 miles from a Catholic church which chimed the quarter hours. You could hear the chimes day or night if there was no masking noise, although obviously during the day you had traffic, lawnmowers, etc. In our case, the church was situated upon a hill, which placed it higher than pretty much the entire town, plus the bells were mounted in the steeple. At night, in my second-story bedroom with windows that faced the church, I have strong memories of reading or writing late at night, long after everyone else was asleep, being conscious of the passing time by the church chimes.
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