Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by harry 40 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Abby Normal 45 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Abby Normal 49 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by harry 57 minutes ago.
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - by Observer 2 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim? - by AuroraSarintacos 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Elizabeth Stride: For what reason do we include Stride? - (23 posts)
Non-Fiction: the victims werent prostitutes - (18 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - (13 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim? - (7 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (6 posts)
Witnesses: Mizen's inquest statement reconstructed - (6 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

View Poll Results: Was Mary Kelly a Ripper victim?
Yes 55 82.09%
No 8 11.94%
Undecided 4 5.97%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #421  
Old 09-13-2018, 11:03 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,292
Default

Hi.
You make a good case, and I agree it is the most likely solution. it has all the hallmarks of a serial killers escalation.
But we are all playing ''Who was Jack The Ripper'' on this site, and surely debating ones ideas, factual/speculation ,fuels interesting debate amongst our members.
Regards Richard.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #422  
Old 09-13-2018, 11:18 AM
Busy Beaver Busy Beaver is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Lothian
Posts: 86
Default

Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but what if Kelly met the Ripper, whilst she was collecting water from the outside tap? Could the Ripper have been passing Miller's Court and looked up to see a lady (wouldn't know how young or old) at the tap area, or at least coming back to the room at 3-00 to 3.30am on the morning of the 9th November? Now not to look at gift horse in the face, did Mary Jane invite him in after he, the Ripper casually walked up the court to "investigate"? In this scenario MJK would not have met the Ripper in the street.
The Ripper in my opinion would not have gone and knocked on her door. If he was someone she knew and did not want to see, I would have expected her to scream the court down, no matter what time, especially if she had been drinking.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #423  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:40 PM
AuroraSarintacos AuroraSarintacos is offline
Cadet
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 32
Default

My opinion is quite simple.

She was walking the streets and picked up, what she though as a client and brought him to her room. She undressed, folded her clothes on the bed, and laid down. He than attacked her from the front and quickly overpowered her. The cut on the sheets suggest he, the killer, either threw the sheets over her head before cutting her throat - or Ms. Kelly lifted the sheets up, like a child afraid of a monster, to which than the swift death blow was delivered.

He may not have waited for her to die before mutilating her, though I personally feel he was not interested in the torture/pain aspect of his victim, the goal was the mutilations.

Given the evidence which suggests that Jack was a blitz killer - unorganized, opportunistic, etc. he worked quick, given the evidence that most victims were found 15 - 30 minutes later dead. He may have only taken 15 minutes to disembowel her and than moved on.

Poor woman.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #424  
Old 09-13-2018, 03:35 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,597
Default

"The reason I don't buy MJK as the work of the same killer is what I have already outlined. Had MJK been a middle-aged woman of average size, like the others, I would not hesitate to agree she was the victim of the same killer. But from all accounts, Mary must have been significantly taller than the killer, and she was young. This is not a trivial difference."

Hello Karl,

I don't see the significance of this. Can you elaborate? Thanks.

c.d.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #425  
Old 09-13-2018, 03:53 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,597
Default

"The Ripper in my opinion would not have gone and knocked on her door. If he was someone she knew and did not want to see, I would have expected her to scream the court down, no matter what time, especially if she had been drinking."

Hello B.B.,

But what if it was someone she did know (even if only casually) and someone she would have been glad to see? Perhaps someone she thought was a client and perhaps someone who had spent money on her previously? Perhaps someone who had made an appointment to come by.

c.d.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #426  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:47 PM
Karl Karl is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuroraSarintacos View Post
Other than her supposed youth there is nothing that differs this poor woman from the rest. This opinion is of seemingly extreme sexism and it makes me quite upset that this seems to be a continuing opinion because the underlining assumption is that she must have done something to deserve that.
Come again?


Quote:
Jack, whoever he was, was a little bloke who hated women and enjoyed mutilating them. The violence escalates, as it tends to do in most serial killers who lose the first initial "high" of their first killings, and I really do not know how one could be of the opinion that that was not the case
Who has suggested otherwise?
Oh, and just to latch onto one detail of what you said: little blokes do not take on big women. MJK was big. Very big. The others were not.


Quote:
or how the mutilation of his victims didn't really match all together and therefore must have been a copy-cat killer or what have you.
No one has said it MUST be a copy-cat killer. I have expressed my opinion as to why I believe such is the case, and if you think that opinion stems from sexism on my part, then you haven't read my posts very well.


Quote:
Once again, and last time, focus on the proof.
Of which there is none, either way.


Quote:
There is no empirical evidence that suggest any of these fantastical suggestions. Stop blaming the victims. Seriously.

Stop.
No one has even started. Suggesting it was a different killer does not in any conceivable way, shape or form suggest that killer #2 had a better reason for killing than killer #1.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #427  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:33 PM
Karl Karl is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
"The reason I don't buy MJK as the work of the same killer is what I have already outlined. Had MJK been a middle-aged woman of average size, like the others, I would not hesitate to agree she was the victim of the same killer. But from all accounts, Mary must have been significantly taller than the killer, and she was young. This is not a trivial difference."

Hello Karl,

I don't see the significance of this. Can you elaborate? Thanks.

c.d.
It is a natural instinct to respect height. And for good reason: height advantage also means reach advantage, which means leverage, and usually (and would be in the case of MJK, by all accounts) more mass. Mass and reach contribute to the output of force you are able to exert. Even though men do on average have an upper body strength much superior to that of women, women can and often do fight off male assailants. Some people are more likely to be victims than others, and that is because they are perceived as more vulnerable. Tall people are rarely perceived as vulnerable.

The opposite is also true: shorter people are generally perceived as physically weaker. If, additionally, they exude an air of insecurity, that will make them stand out as one of the slower antelopes on the Serengeti.

Size advantage is going to be especially important to an assailant who uses his bare hands. Predators, whether human or animal, prey on weakness. You don't seek a fight unless you feel confident you are going to win. A disadvantage in height is a potent deterrant.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #428  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:38 AM
Karl Karl is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 213
Default

I just came across a very pertinent question I asked long ago in a different thread: what sources have we for MJK's height, anyway? It seems we all take 5'7 for granted, but neither the inquest nor the post mortem make any mention of it. It is also commonly assumed that "Long Leg" Liz Stride was tall - 5'5, tall for a woman at that time. Where that figure stems from, however, I have no idea - Stride's inquest quite plainly states she was 5'2. So could Mary's tall height be another spurious piece of received wisdom?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #429  
Old 09-14-2018, 07:19 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,292
Default

Hi
Mrs Maxwell describes her as a little woman.
Others have described her as powerfully built. that stood no nonsense .
Take your pick?
But most describe her as quite attractive, most likely helped by her age.
Regards Richard.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #430  
Old 09-14-2018, 07:42 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 10,435
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl View Post
I just came across a very pertinent question I asked long ago in a different thread: what sources have we for MJK's height, anyway? It seems we all take 5'7 for granted
Good point, Karl. I don't know off the top of my head what the source (if any) of that nugget of info is; perhaps someone will enlighten us.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.