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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #791  
Old 08-21-2018, 02:19 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Hello jon

A short bladed knife (un-ripperlike in itself) can still be sliced across the throat and, regardless of the length of the blade, commencing an abdominal wound above the abdomen is a waste of time.
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  #792  
Old 08-21-2018, 02:35 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Frank im not making a direct comparison. Its an analogy so again the detailed point by point you made is misguided.
Sorry, Abby, I misunderstood you.

Although I don’t think that my “detailed point by point” was in any way wrong or misleading (if that’s what you mean by “misguided”), I do think that I get what you wanted to say now: the urge can change from quite controllable to quite uncontrollable & back and the less controllable it gets, the less one cares about the risk involved. Is that what you’re saying?

It’s possible the urge of TM/the Ripper, if they are to be one and the same, suddenly increased. In my view, it has to mean that something important (or a combination of important things) happened in his life around the time between the Whitehall victim and Nichols that resulted in a much stronger urge or a much lower level of inhibition. Like I wrote before, until now I haven’t seen any explanations for it that convince me.

All the best,
Frank
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  #793  
Old 08-21-2018, 03:10 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Hello jon

A short bladed knife (un-ripperlike in itself) can still be sliced across the throat and, regardless of the length of the blade, commencing an abdominal wound above the abdomen is a waste of time.
True, Gareth. McKenzie`s killer does seem to have used an ordinary pen knife, the sort carried by most men. But would THE Ripper have carried his normal long bladed knife at all times, if he still had it, 6 months after killing Kelly.
The knife really isn`t an issue, I think.

The Ripper targeted the carotid (the left one specifically), the rest of the throat cut, whether it circled the neck completely or was across the throat ear to ear, was overkill and mutilation. In this instance the double attempt at cutting straight through the carotid, down to the vertebra is very Ripper like.
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  #794  
Old 08-21-2018, 03:54 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
The Ripper targeted the carotid (the left one specifically), the rest of the throat cut, whether it circled the neck completely or was across the throat ear to ear, was overkill and mutilation. In this instance the double attempt at cutting straight through the carotid, down to the vertebra is very Ripper like.
But it wasn't an attempt at cutting, as such, but two slightly elongated stabs. The Ripper killed with a slicing, not a stabbing, motion of the blade across the throat.

We must also consider the fact that we only have one cut that traversed, without penetrating, the abdominal wall - and even that started at the breast and didn't extend below the navel. The only cut below the navel was a small one over the firm area at the pubis; there was no cut at all through the fleshy surface of the lower abdominal cavity, an area targeted in every single one of the Ripper's disembowelled victims.
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  #795  
Old 08-21-2018, 04:56 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
The Ripper killed with a slicing, not a stabbing, motion of the blade across the throat.
Good point, but instantly made me think of Tabram`s killer, who stabbed the throat. (I`m guessing you don`t include Tabram in your canon ?)
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  #796  
Old 08-21-2018, 05:57 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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You're operating at "Level 1" - or even "Level Zero" - similarities. Sorry, but my mind doesn't work at that level of superficiality.No, they weren't. For the same reasons as I've given already.
Superficial, Level 1 or Level Zero, similaritiesNo, I didn't. What's the big deal with post-mortem mutilation anyway? Easier for ANYONE to achieve after the victim is dead. And McKenzie's mutilations - whether postmortem, premortem or perimortem - were utter CRAP compared to the Ripper victims.No, I didn't "downplay" it. She was stabbed twice ON THE LEFT SIDE of her neck and the wound was carried forward. That's NOT THE SAME as a SLICE across the entire throat.I've studied statistics. Have you?If you're going to use quotes, please quote me precisely; I didn't say that. Anyhoo, I defy anyone to scratch - yes, SCRATCH - the lower abdomen through a layer of clothing.Psychobabble. I have a degree in psychology - do you?
ONE SMALL cut on the mons veneris. Sorry, but that's not the Ripper.
wow-new low from you Sam. Nothing but insults, arrogant boasting and zero responses to the actual points I raised.

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"Level 1" - or even "Level Zero" - similarities.

whats this Sam? lol. Did you just make this up? Talk about psychobabble.
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  #797  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:06 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
Sorry, Abby, I misunderstood you.

Although I don’t think that my “detailed point by point” was in any way wrong or misleading (if that’s what you mean by “misguided”), I do think that I get what you wanted to say now: the urge can change from quite controllable to quite uncontrollable & back and the less controllable it gets, the less one cares about the risk involved. Is that what you’re saying?

It’s possible the urge of TM/the Ripper, if they are to be one and the same, suddenly increased. In my view, it has to mean that something important (or a combination of important things) happened in his life around the time between the Whitehall victim and Nichols that resulted in a much stronger urge or a much lower level of inhibition. Like I wrote before, until now I haven’t seen any explanations for it that convince me.

All the best,
Frank
Hi Frank

The way I see it something did happen-although I would go back to Tabram or even Millwood for the start. Mainly that his MO differed as a result of personal circumstances. As in maybe his chop shop wasn't available and or he was upping the thrill factor.

Quote:
I do think that I get what you wanted to say now: the urge can change from quite controllable to quite uncontrollable & back and the less controllable it gets, the less one cares about the risk involved. Is that what you’re saying?

Basically yes-MY MO changed because my circumstances changed and at this point the urge was stronger than ever. Yes-Going out in the street to get what I wanted was more spontaneous, disorganized and risky. and it wasn't even that I cared less about the risk-the extra risk actually made it more thrilling!
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but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #798  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:11 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
True, Gareth. McKenzie`s killer does seem to have used an ordinary pen knife, the sort carried by most men. But would THE Ripper have carried his normal long bladed knife at all times, if he still had it, 6 months after killing Kelly.
The knife really isn`t an issue, I think.

The Ripper targeted the carotid (the left one specifically), the rest of the throat cut, whether it circled the neck completely or was across the throat ear to ear, was overkill and mutilation. In this instance the double attempt at cutting straight through the carotid, down to the vertebra is very Ripper like.
exactly on all points Jon.

One also has to take into account that the throat cuts maybe weren't exactly the same because of different circs-perhaps the victims were struggling and or the ripper was drunk for example.

were talking about human beings and reality here-not robots going through some preconceived script.
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but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #799  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:12 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Hello jon

A short bladed knife (un-ripperlike in itself) can still be sliced across the throat and, regardless of the length of the blade, commencing an abdominal wound above the abdomen is a waste of time.
It wasn’t above the abdomen. Try Dr Phillips measurements on yourself. On me (I’m 6’0”) the wound begins just above the navel and extends to my groin.

Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part.


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  #800  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:44 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
You're operating at "Level 1" - or even "Level Zero" - similarities. Sorry, but my mind doesn't work at that level of superficiality.No, they weren't. For the same reasons as I've given already.
Superficial, Level 1 or Level Zero, similaritiesNo, I didn't. What's the big deal with post-mortem mutilation anyway? Easier for ANYONE to achieve after the victim is dead. And McKenzie's mutilations - whether postmortem, premortem or perimortem - were utter CRAP compared to the Ripper victims.No, I didn't "downplay" it. She was stabbed twice ON THE LEFT SIDE of her neck and the wound was carried forward. That's NOT THE SAME as a SLICE across the entire throat.I've studied statistics. Have you?If you're going to use quotes, please quote me precisely; I didn't say that. Anyhoo, I defy anyone to scratch - yes, SCRATCH - the lower abdomen through a layer of clothing.Psychobabble. I have a degree in psychology - do you?
ONE SMALL cut on the mons veneris. Sorry, but that's not the Ripper.
one more thing Sam

Quote:
What's the big deal with post-mortem mutilation anyway? Easier for ANYONE to achieve after the victim is dead.

The point here it has nothing to do with how easy it is to inflict damage on a body post mortem-but that the urge is even there in the first place to do it! post mortem damage is rare in killers but i guessed you skipped that section in your psychology degree.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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