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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #161  
Old 08-16-2018, 05:57 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Hi HS, perhaps the answer is in your question/s, what if the knife could have been identified as Lechmere's, could be that it was gifted to him by a relative or possibly an employer and, possibly either unique in design ( and therfore also held sentimental value, so he wouldn't want to dump it) it's a possibility that it could be associated with him, I'd imagine it could have been a good quality knife as it seems to have been fairly strong and well looked after, generally, if a knife is a quality one, it possibly means it's expensive and therfore, looked after.
So, if that's the case, he wouldn't want to just dump it, after all
What would he do for his next victim (Chapman), he'd have to buy a new knife which would be difficult as he probably couldn't afford another quality one?
Also, as he was obviously a nutter (if he was in fact the Ripper), he might well have reasoned that his best defence was to keep the knife and, should things go south and Paul showed any sign of suspecting him, he could quickly silence him too?
It has also just occured to me that his knife, if a special or sentimental one, might well have been notched per kill as the gun slingers of the old west would do to the grip scales of their Colt 45's after they'd gunned down someone at high noon, who's to say with a nutter?
Possibly, as a sexual thing too, he might have seen it as an extension of his penis as he penetrates the unfortunates bodies, who knows with these perverts?
Then again, perhaps there was no knife - he might have been just walking to work��
Good points RobIn.

For me though it would have been a massive and unnecessary risk to have used a knife that could have been connected to him. One that he couldn’t discard if he found himself in a difficult situation. We’ve no way of knowing though of course and it’s not impossible that the knife might have had some significance for him but I just feel it likelier that the killer, even though risks undoubtedly existed, had a sense of self-preservation which would have overridden other considerations. Just my opinion of course.
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  #162  
Old 08-16-2018, 08:15 AM
Rob1n Rob1n is offline
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Of course you are correct Herlock, he'd be mad to use a knife that could be traced back to him. About the self preservation, to a degree yes, but one thing that always puzzled me was, how on Earth did he expect to get away from the Mitre square job, he killed her, cut her up and, got away with possibly only seconds to spare and, all in the dark! He didn't seem to have any sense of self preservation there, the odds were heavily stacked against him there.I kinda think he was a big risk taker or wanted to be caught, possibly he was terminally ill? Knowing he had a short time left perhaps it didn't matter to him, perhaps this is why he suddenly stopped? All supposition I'm affraid, God I wish someone would tell us who it was, I'm pretty sure the Police or, the authorities knew, why would they want to jold it from us- very frustrating but, then again we wouldn't be here to discuss it would we? And,that wouldn't do!

Last edited by Rob1n : 08-16-2018 at 08:18 AM.
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  #163  
Old 08-16-2018, 08:19 AM
Rob1n Rob1n is offline
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Of course, if he was terminally ill, it couldn't have been Lechmere!
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  #164  
Old 08-16-2018, 09:06 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Of course you are correct Herlock, he'd be mad to use a knife that could be traced back to him. About the self preservation, to a degree yes, but one thing that always puzzled me was, how on Earth did he expect to get away from the Mitre square job, he killed her, cut her up and, got away with possibly only seconds to spare and, all in the dark! He didn't seem to have any sense of self preservation there, the odds were heavily stacked against him there.I kinda think he was a big risk taker or wanted to be caught, possibly he was terminally ill? Knowing he had a short time left perhaps it didn't matter to him, perhaps this is why he suddenly stopped? All supposition I'm affraid, God I wish someone would tell us who it was, I'm pretty sure the Police or, the authorities knew, why would they want to jold it from us- very frustrating but, then again we wouldn't be here to discuss it would we? And,that wouldn't do!
I know what you mean RobIn. I’m very rusty on timings and details these days but Mitre Square was definitely ‘cutting it fine.’ I know that it’s been suggested many times that the killer might have been aware of police patrol times or maybe Catherine Eddowes told him “don’t worry we won’t be disturbed for ages yet” and he felt confident that from experience she would know. Or maybe he got the wrong time (in all likelihood not owning a watch) which left him thinking that there was a good 10 minutes until the Constable arrived and he only finished up and missed him by luck?

It’s not impossible that the killer might have had a life-threatening illness (or maybe even just believed that he had) which gave him a ‘so what if I get caught’ attitude. We know that Lechmere had a long life but it’s not impossible that he was a kind of manic hypercondriac who thought that his days were numbered. It’s something that we can’t assume though.

On of the problems with timings for me is the murder of Annie Chapman. I think that’s it’s reasonable to say that the vast majority of working men had to be at work at the same time every day. Therefore it’s reasonable to assume that Lechmere’s start time was 4am. If memory serves I think Fish goes for 4.30ish as the time of her death (I think as per one of the doctors.) This does contradict Long and Cadosch though. Even if we say between 4.30 and 5.30 it’s still after the time that we would expect Lechmere to have been at work. Not conclusive of course but a doubt that we have to make an assumption to overcome.
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  #165  
Old 08-16-2018, 11:38 PM
Rob1n Rob1n is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
I know what you mean RobIn. I’m very rusty on timings and details these days but Mitre Square was definitely ‘cutting it fine.’ I know that it’s been suggested many times that the killer might have been aware of police patrol times or maybe Catherine Eddowes told him “don’t worry we won’t be disturbed for ages yet” and he felt confident that from experience she would know. Or maybe he got the wrong time (in all likelihood not owning a watch) which left him thinking that there was a good 10 minutes until the Constable arrived and he only finished up and missed him by luck?

It’s not impossible that the killer might have had a life-threatening illness (or maybe even just believed that he had) which gave him a ‘so what if I get caught’ attitude. We know that Lechmere had a long life but it’s not impossible that he was a kind of manic hypercondriac who thought that his days were numbered. It’s something that we can’t assume though.

On of the problems with timings for me is the murder of Annie Chapman. I think that’s it’s reasonable to say that the vast majority of working men had to be at work at the same time every day. Therefore it’s reasonable to assume that Lechmere’s start time was 4am. If memory serves I think Fish goes for 4.30ish as the time of her death (I think as per one of the doctors.) This does contradict Long and Cadosch though. Even if we say between 4.30 and 5.30 it’s still after the time that we would expect Lechmere to have been at work. Not conclusive of course but a doubt that we have to make an assumption to overcome.
Witnesses eh! The Chapman timings seem very strange, I'm inclined to believe Cadosch because if Annie was dead at 04:30 ish why at 05:25 ish would someone be heard to say "no" and fall against the fence with a body already there ?
For it to be Lechmere, he'd have been, as you suggest, late for work.
Same problem with Kelly, she's murdered what, 2 -3 in the morning (can't remember the given times) then seen around 8 - 9 drunk or hungover near the Brittania I think? Witnesses again.
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  #166  
Old 08-16-2018, 11:44 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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I'm inclined to believe Cadosch because if Annie was dead at 04:30 ish why at 05:25 ish would someone be heard to say "no" and fall against the fence with a body already there ?
Quite, whereas a cry of "No!" followed by the noise of something falling against the fence is precisely what one might expect to have heard if someone had been attacked and killed within touching distance of said fence.
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  #167  
Old 08-17-2018, 05:46 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quite, whereas a cry of "No!" followed by the noise of something falling against the fence is precisely what one might expect to have heard if someone had been attacked and killed within touching distance of said fence.
I don't think Cadosch ever described hearing a *cry* of "No!", Sam, most reports have this as him hearing a conversation, of which this was the only word he could make out. If it had been an actual cry, it surely would have attracted more attention from Cadosch. For all we know, it could have been Annie's reply to the question "do you have change for this shiny sovereign?"

Also, the noise of something hitting or falling against the fence was on his subsequent visit to the yard, so there were several minutes between the two events. I like to imagine it was a startled Ripper bashing his head on the fence at Albert's unexpected reappearance so soon after leaving.

Which doesn't mean he didn't overhear Chapman's murder, just that it's not as obvious as your post makes it sound.
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  #168  
Old 08-17-2018, 06:16 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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It was either a "cry" or an "ejaculation", Josh; I chose the former, for some reason Besides, I never meant that the ejaculation and the sound of something hitting the fence were simultaneous.
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 08-17-2018 at 06:27 AM.
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  #169  
Old 08-17-2018, 06:56 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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And either way, the likelihood would have been that Lechmere would have been at work while this was happening.
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  #170  
Old 08-17-2018, 07:09 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quite, whereas a cry of "No!" followed by the noise of something falling against the fence is precisely what one might expect to have heard if someone had been attacked and killed within touching distance of said fence.
yup=Long was probably off on her timings
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