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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #761  
Old 08-16-2018, 05:25 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.
It's not a "minutiae rabbit hole", it's merely taking things down one level, which hardly constitutes "minutiae". For example:

Level 1 - Same area
Level 2 - Opposite ends of a large city

Level 1 - Neck wounds
Level 2 - Throat cutting in the Ripper series / Beheadings in the Torso murders

It's all a matter of being accurate with the data. Level 1 arguments are way too high-level to make any valid comparisons; indeed, the two examples I've given are misleading and/or inaccurate, but that hasn't stopped them being used by pro-Torsoripper advocates.
Quote:
your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.
The details are very different, particularly at Level 2, but also at Level 1 if we're honest with ourselves.
Quote:
No one can even answer this very broad one- have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?
No one can answer that because the question is invalid. The torso killer/s was/were primarily into dismemberment, not evisceration.
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  #762  
Old 08-16-2018, 05:54 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Sure-the torsoripper.
Quote:
But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.
It actually isn't all that detailed. I could have done with just the last 2 conditions in my earlier post:
- the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
- the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
The first 2 conditions were just there to define a series.
Quote:
No one can even answer this very broad one-
I'm not that interested in finding examples, but would rather like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.
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have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?
Not as far as I know.
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  #763  
Old 08-16-2018, 05:59 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.
Eh?!!! Despite the clear difference in geography, the disparity in the ages of the victims, and the nature of the wounds, etc? You surprise me, Frank
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  #764  
Old 08-16-2018, 07:36 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
It actually isn't all that detailed. I could have done with just the last 2 conditions in my earlier post:
- the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
- the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
The first 2 conditions were just there to define a series.
I'm not that interested in finding examples, but would rather like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.
Not as far as I know.
Hi Frank
well im no criminal psychologist but I would posit that the ripper was also a planner:

He used a ruse to get the victims where he wanted them-posing as a client. The torsoman probably did the same.

He surely planned which nights he was going to be actively hunting-had to bring the knife, have money to show, perhaps rag, bag or gloves. wear dark clothes that wouldnt show blood stains.

And since he was always one step ahead of the police-perhaps planned when to strike according to beats.

The evidence shows Mary probably knew her killer-so he probably planned on targeting her-especially if he knew she had her own place and knew she recently broke up and was single again.

re slow vs Outburst. To me if they were the same-the outburst is possible because his chop shop not available and or hes upping the thrill factor.
which with this climax he stops for a while and then Mckenzie and pinchon later and then both series end at the same time. The ending of both series at the same time is very much more significant than any changes during the series in my mind.
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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Last edited by Abby Normal : 08-16-2018 at 07:39 AM.
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  #765  
Old 08-17-2018, 01:20 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
It's not a "minutiae rabbit hole", it's merely taking things down one level, which hardly constitutes "minutiae". For example:

Level 1 - Same area
Level 2 - Opposite ends of a large city

Level 1 - Neck wounds
Level 2 - Throat cutting in the Ripper series / Beheadings in the Torso murders

It's all a matter of being accurate with the data. Level 1 arguments are way too high-level to make any valid comparisons; indeed, the two examples I've given are misleading and/or inaccurate, but that hasn't stopped them being used by pro-Torsoripper advocates.
The details are very different, particularly at Level 2, but also at Level 1 if we're honest with ourselves.
No one can answer that because the question is invalid. The torso killer/s was/were primarily into dismemberment, not evisceration.
Exactly Sam. On this thread people keep posting things like same area. When the two sets of murders occurred at different points of a large city. Also Alice McKenzie's murder is lumped in with The Ripper murders for conveinence when logically it's unlikely she was a Ripper victim.
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  #766  
Old 08-17-2018, 02:23 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Eh?!!! Despite the clear difference in geography, the disparity in the ages of the victims, and the nature of the wounds, etc? You surprise me, Frank
I just like to surprise every now & then, Gareth.

But seriously, I see the "patient planner" vs. the "impatient doer" aspect as the most important, but would like to hear what they would make of the nature of the wounds and the geography, as well.
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  #767  
Old 08-17-2018, 03:07 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Frank
well im no criminal psychologist but I would posit that the ripper was also a planner:
Hi Abby,

Then we don’t see I to eye on this one. There’s simply nothing in the evidence that supports the notion that the Ripper was much, if anything, of a planner. He needed to do no more than to go out at night with murder on his mind, walk around until a woman accosted him, accept her proposal, show her the money, go with her and that was that. He certainly didn’t need to talk or charm her into anything. He, quite likely, would have always had the knife on him, as people then & there had almost everything they owned (which was very little) on them all the time and I’m quite sure that the clothes he wore were old, dirty and therefore rather dark.

I think the Ripper was smart enough to choose the nightly hours of lull to kill, to cut the throat of his victims in such a way that he didn’t get all covered in blood and to keep a keen eye/ear on his surroundings, so that he got away in time. And, of course, he was enough in control of himself to not give himself away or draw attention to him at any time right before and after the murders. That’s about as far as we can go, based on the evidence.

But even if we were to accept that the Ripper was a planner, then we would also have to accept that Torso Man was an über-planner and, in this sense, the gap between them as suggested by the evidence, would remain.

Cheers
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  #768  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:02 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
Exactly Sam. On this thread people keep posting things like same area. When the two sets of murders occurred at different points of a large city. Also Alice McKenzie's murder is lumped in with The Ripper murders for conveinence when logically it's unlikely she was a Ripper victim.
If mckenzie isnt a ripper victim than neither is stride and eddowes
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #769  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:18 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
Hi Abby,

Then we don’t see I to eye on this one. There’s simply nothing in the evidence that supports the notion that the Ripper was much, if anything, of a planner. He needed to do no more than to go out at night with murder on his mind, walk around until a woman accosted him, accept her proposal, show her the money, go with her and that was that. He certainly didn’t need to talk or charm her into anything. He, quite likely, would have always had the knife on him, as people then & there had almost everything they owned (which was very little) on them all the time and I’m quite sure that the clothes he wore were old, dirty and therefore rather dark.

I think the Ripper was smart enough to choose the nightly hours of lull to kill, to cut the throat of his victims in such a way that he didn’t get all covered in blood and to keep a keen eye/ear on his surroundings, so that he got away in time. And, of course, he was enough in control of himself to not give himself away or draw attention to him at any time right before and after the murders. That’s about as far as we can go, based on the evidence.

But even if we were to accept that the Ripper was a planner, then we would also have to accept that Torso Man was an über-planner and, in this sense, the gap between them as suggested by the evidence, would remain.

Cheers
Hi hs
No we dont see eye to eye on this one.

Where as i agree there is probably more planning that needs to be involved in the torso murders its not that much of a distinction really to be significant.

Let me give you an example. When i was young and more stupid and reckless i liked to do coke. Most of the time i liked to do it in the comfort of my home, having purchased from friends, and would indulge at leisure. Howeber, there was a period when the habit was at its worst, where if i ran out, i would go out and buy it from “dealers” out on the street or pushers at some coke house and do some there. This was more impulsive, less plannning, riskier, and even the way i took it was different.

Hopefully you can see the analogy.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #770  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:31 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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If mckenzie isnt a ripper victim than neither is stride and eddowes
I'm OK with excluding Stride, but not Eddowes. McKenzie neither had a uterus, kidney nor any other lower abdominal organ removed, mainly because her abdomen wasn't cut through. Indeed, her only abdominal cut extended from the bottom of her breast to her navel, i.e. on the upper abdomen, and it was not deep, either.

Stride, of course, sustained no abdominal wounds at all, only a cut throat - and that not as severe as we've seen in other Ripper victims. In my view, both she and McKenzie were killed by two different men, and neither of them was the Ripper. Or Torsoman, for that matter.
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