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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #741  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:49 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
That's a great quote Varqm. I feel that the circumstantial evidence in that case could easily lead one to believe that Kate was seeking to blackmail parties she believed were responsible for the killings. Whether she was right or wrong, if this suggestion is correct, if those parties were involved in some kind of criminal activities and needed to blend in with the tapestry there, she posed a threat. The suggestion of the meeting is also interesting because the people who would know what time she would be released were the Police at Bishopsgate.
The possibility of Kate seeking appointments for blackmail,or to gain something,let alone knew who the killer was (how did she know?), I think was very remote.The implication was somebody was trying to have an appointment with Kate to lure her into Mitre Square to be butchered.If one killer it could have been a appointment as the article suggests but a likelier reason was it was a coincidence,but to me the likeliest/simplest explanation was there were 2 killers doing 2 different things.
The full article is Philadelphia something in Press Reports section of this site.
Can you expound on the circumstantial evidence?

---
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Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
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  #742  
Old 08-14-2018, 10:20 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
"Mutilation" isn't a specific enough term on its own. The nature of the mutilations needs to be objectively taken into account and, less objectively, the potential explanations for them.
Sam, you're a jackass.

Quote:
Alice McKenzie Injuries:

Cause of death from severance of the left carotid artery.
Two stabs in the left side of the neck 'carried forward in the same skin wound.'
Some bruising on chest.
Five bruises or marks on left side of abdomen.
Cut was made from left to right, apparently while McKenzie was on the ground.
A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
Small cut across the mons veneris.
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  #743  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:06 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
The possibility of Kate seeking appointments...

Can you expound on the circumstantial evidence?
Please do any expounding on an Eddowes thread, Michael. This one's about the Torso cases specifically.
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  #744  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:08 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
Sam, you're a jackass.
Ad hominem.
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  #745  
Old 08-15-2018, 01:32 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
First: apologies if you were offended by my post. I never intended that.
Apologies accepted, Christer, no harm done.
Quote:
We both have difficulties accepting the other man´s bid, reasonably because we both try to make as rational a choice as possible when we try to assess what happened.

The funny thing is...

...There is also a further parameter - the one I will not divulge as of yet - that I believe cements the suggestion of a single killer. But that should be no problem to you; if I can say there is, but refuse to reveal it then you can do the exact same on your behalf!
Otherwise, a balanced and good post. I agree that we don’t have all the cards on hand and am afraid that the ones we don’t have (or most of ‘m, anyway) are forever lost to us. But you never know! I am curious about this parameter you won’t divulge of as yet, though - but all in due time.

All the best, Christer!
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  #746  
Old 08-15-2018, 01:41 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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There is also a further parameter - the one I will not divulge as of yet - that I believe cements the suggestion of a single killer. But that should be no problem to you; if I can say there is, but refuse to reveal it then you can do the exact same on your behalf!
While we can't say how many actual killers there were or mutilators or whether the one doing the killing was the mutilator. But what we do know is there no chance it was a coincide a man went to the press the day before a torso was found in Whitehall and John Arnold did the exact same thing with Pinchin. Either has to be a killer with a big mouth or a killer with an accomplice who has a big mouth.
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  #747  
Old 08-15-2018, 02:31 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Hi frank
But history does show one man committing different series. The recent golden state killer is a prime example.
Hi Abby,

I appreciate your persistence! The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

The best,
Frank
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  #748  
Old 08-15-2018, 04:13 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.
His "career" seems to have occupied three different phases. He murdered one man during his ransacking phase, and killed a couple during his rape phase, but in both instances he was either challenged or the victims were gunned down while running away (he also used his gun, non-fatally, on a separate occasion, but only in response to a policeman accosting him). During his murder phase, his favoured method was to bludgeon his victims to death as a postlude to rape.

Overall, DeAngelo strikes me a clear case of escalation, not someone alternating between different MOs during the same period of time.
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  #749  
Old 08-15-2018, 06:24 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
While we can't say how many actual killers there were or mutilators or whether the one doing the killing was the mutilator. But what we do know is there no chance it was a coincide a man went to the press the day before a torso was found in Whitehall and John Arnold did the exact same thing with Pinchin. Either has to be a killer with a big mouth or a killer with an accomplice who has a big mouth.
if true-the killer messing with people.
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  #750  
Old 08-15-2018, 06:38 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
Hi Abby,

I appreciate your persistence! The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

The best,
Frank
and I appreciate yours. But, as the norm with folks on the other side of this debate-everytime we give a similarity you drill down to more detail to highlight more and more minute differences in response. Down the minutia hole we go.

you can play that game with everything. we could do it between the differences between the ripper murders to argue all the victims were killed by different men.


The fact of the matter is that history has born out with serial killers:

They change there MO-sometimes drastically

They even change their their sig-depending on fantasy and escalation.

They change time frames, stop for long periods and change frequency.


Now re GSK and torso/ripper- The ripper killed indoors-mary Kelly. we assume Torsoman did but perhaps not with all. Whitehall some have put forth she was killed there.


GSK-depending on the circs-killed outdoors-the maggiores and Claude Snelling. Also, tried to abduct and bring out of the house a couple of times.


One really does have to take all this-changing circs for the killer, change and or escalation in fantasy etc., into account when looking at apparent differences (when there are so many other similarities) for accurate analysis IMHO.
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