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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

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  #731  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:01 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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All very true, but this doesn’t make the evidence go away that suggests that Torso Man was a patient planner and the Ripper a rather compulsive doer, 2 different states of mind. It’s as simple as that. We look at the same similarities and the same differences and the above is one of the latter. They belong to the case evidence. What doesn’t belong to the case evidence, but what you make a decisive factor, is the statistics. And that’s fine. It’s just not what I do for now.

Had every torso murder been followed by one or two Ripper murders and had the frequency of the Ripper murders been more in line with the torso murders, I would have been more inclined to let the statistics speak. And when two criminal/forensic psychologists will independently state that this particular difference doesn’t mean a thing, I will be the first to say that Torso Man and the Ripper are very likely one and the same.

So, you see, Christer, I don't let my fantasy or imagination lead my way of thinking, nor is there any irrationality to the things I suggest. Therefore, there's no need to worry about me in this respect or accuse me of such things. Maybe I don’t always word everything as clear as one could, but it’s all logical (maybe not your logic) and evidence-based.
Answer: yes. First thought: the killer(s) themselves/himself may not even have been aware of why they did what they did. Second thought: my guess would be that they may have done it for a variety of reasons. The killer's mood may have played a part, just as the time he (thought he) had and the physical appearance of his victim in the abdominal region. But, of course, I can't know when one or more of these reasons applied and when others did - if they did at all, that is. Quite similar to your own thoughts, I reckon.

The best,
Frank
First: apologies if you were offended by my post. I never intended that. The word irrational must, however, be applied to the issue on the whole, regardless of who is correct, you or me. I will try to explain!

We both have difficulties accepting the other man´s bid, reasonably because we both try to make as rational a choice as possible when we try to assess what happened.

The funny thing is that there is no rational solution. If I am correct, then we have a killer who behaved in a manner that deviates markedly from what one would expect. The sequence of events is, like you say, an unexpected one and the two series seem to give away different tempers and ability to plan.
It does not seem rational, and is not in accordance with what would be expected.
Looking on it like that, you would seem to be the rational one. And I would seem to be the irrational one.

Then again, what you suggest encompasses a suggestion that there were two serial killers working simultaneously and in the same area, and who both eviscerated, who both took out hearts, who both took out uteri, who both took away abdominal walls in sections, who both targetted prostitutes, who both left their victims with no signs of physical torture, who both had victims who had had their rings taken away, who both cut abdomens from sternum to bow ...
And suddenly, you are the irrational one and I am the rational one.

Regardless of who is right, that somebody will have put forward an argument that is not in sync with what should be logically expected. There is no logical solution to be had, going by the parameters we are aware of. So irrationality must pass, it would seem. One way or the other.

The one thing I would say speaks in favour of my stance is that we do not have all the cards on hand. And I find it a lot more likely that what we perceive as illogical in the one man killer perspective has logical and sound explanations that are hidden to us today.

The two man perspective is a lot harder to find explanations for. Not impossible, but harder.

There is also a further parameter - the one I will not divulge as of yet - that I believe cements the suggestion of a single killer. But that should be no problem to you; if I can say there is, but refuse to reveal it then you can do the exact same on your behalf!

All the best, Frank!

Last edited by Fisherman : 08-13-2018 at 11:06 PM.
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  #732  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:21 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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"Then again, what you suggest encompasses a suggestion that there were two serial killers working simultaneously and in the same area, and who both eviscerated, who both took out hearts, who both took out uteri, who both took away abdominal walls in sections, who both targetted prostitutes, who both left their victims with no signs of physical torture, who both had victims who had had their rings taken away, who both cut abdomens from sternum to bow ..."

Still the same stretched points, overgeneralisations and "extras", I see. And still no mention of dismemberment, which characterised the torso victims 100% yet featured in 0% of the Ripper victims.
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  #733  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:25 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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"Then again, what you suggest encompasses a suggestion that there were two serial killers working simultaneously and in the same area, and who both eviscerated, who both took out hearts, who both took out uteri, who both took away abdominal walls in sections, who both targetted prostitutes, who both left their victims with no signs of physical torture, who both had victims who had had their rings taken away, who both cut abdomens from sternum to bow ..."

Still the same stretched points, overgeneralisations and "extras", I see. And still no mention of dismemberment, which characterised the torso victims 100% yet featured in 0% of the Ripper victims.
I could, if I wanted to, tell you that you have served up Extras Galore by inventing fivehundred alternative scenarios and presented them asa if they were all true. The near certainty that the torso man lived in Battersea and such things.

Never throw stones in glass houses, Gareth. The post was not intended gor you, but for Frank, who - albeit he has another view than me - has no problems at all when it comes to seeing my pints and to discuss them in a reasoned and just way. He will be kind of aware that both he and I know that the torso victims were dismembered, and so he will in all probability not whine about it, the way you do.

Youn could learn a lot from him. But that would of course take your focus away from throwing horse manure at me, so I don´t foresee any genuine will from your side to do that.
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  #734  
Old 08-14-2018, 02:37 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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McKenzie was at best a tenuous Ripper victim, and the manner of her death was different from either Jackson or the Pinchin victim. The latter two torso cases were different as well, so there wasn't much copying going on, however we look at it.
Alice McKenzie fits the Ripper's signature & MO. She was a prostitute, her left carotid artery had been severed, her skirts were raised and her abdomen mutilated. Perhaps not to the same degree as previous victims but no two murders are alike. A copycat is unlikely.
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  #735  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:19 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Alice McKenzie fits the Ripper's signature & MO. She was a prostitute, her left carotid artery had been severed, her skirts were raised and her abdomen mutilated. Perhaps not to the same degree as previous victims but no two murders are alike.
Prostitutes are frequent targets for violence and, in the LVP, murder. They're also prime candidates for having lifted skirts, so not much can be read into that either. Her neck and abdominal wounds weren't particularly of the Ripper variety, viz:

Two stabs in the left side of the neck "carried forward in the same skin wound". (No circumnavigation of the throat here, then.)

A seven inch "but not unduly deep" wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel. (Apart from some scratches and a single small cut on the pubis, her lower abdomen appears to have escaped relatively unscathed.)

Even allowing for "no two murders are alike", this doesn't look too much like the Ripper to me.

Besides... Pinchin and Jackson were different from McKenzie, and from one another.
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  #736  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:40 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Varqm View Post
.

"THE POLICE AT WORK

The ablest officers were detailed to work up the case, but the fullest investigation of the meagre facts at their disposal failed to lead to the apprehension of the murderer. They however arrived at a conclusion which, if correct, tends to explode the almost universally-held theory that these horrible crimes are all the work of a single miscreant. Carefully calculating the time it would take to cover the ground between Berners (sic) street and Mitre Square and having approximately fixed the hour at which each murder was committed they were forced to the conclusion that if the same man murdered both the women Catharine Beddowes (sic) must have met him by appointment in Mitre Square, as the supposition that he found her in this unfrequented place at the exact moment he desired was clearly untenable"

--
That's a great quote Varqm. I feel that the circumstantial evidence in that case could easily lead one to believe that Kate was seeking to blackmail parties she believed were responsible for the killings. Whether she was right or wrong, if this suggestion is correct, if those parties were involved in some kind of criminal activities and needed to blend in with the tapestry there, she posed a threat. The suggestion of the meeting is also interesting because the people who would know what time she would be released were the Police at Bishopsgate.
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  #737  
Old 08-14-2018, 03:55 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Prostitutes are frequent targets for violence and, in the LVP, murder. They're also prime candidates for having lifted skirts, so not much can be read into that either. Her neck and abdominal wounds weren't particularly of the Ripper variety, viz
Sure, violence and murder are occupational hazards for prostitutes but how many of them were murdered in that manner before and after 1888/89?

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Besides... Pinchin and Jackson were different from McKenzie, and from one another.
McKenzie had abdominal mutilation, Pinchin had abdominal mutilation, Jackson had abdominal mutilation and organ removal.
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  #738  
Old 08-14-2018, 04:13 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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"Mutilation" isn't a specific enough term on its own. The nature of the mutilations needs to be objectively taken into account and, less objectively, the potential explanations for them.
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  #739  
Old 08-14-2018, 05:13 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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I don’t think that, if they weren’t one & the same, Torso Man cut out the uterus in Ripper-style to throw off suspicion, simply because there wasn’t any suspicion in either of the series. I suggest he may have done it to attract more media attention to the torso murders as I'm sure he was aware of the newspaper coverage the Ripper murders got. That is in line with the placing/dumping of body parts at Whitehall, Tottenham Court Road, the Shelley garden and Pinchin Street. Or (in line with what Christer is thinking) he may have done it because he had never actually taken a victim apart in that fashion. Or perhaps a bit of both. Anyway, I'm not married to the idea that they must have influenced each other.

Just like history doesn’t bear out one serial killer committing 2 series as separate & distinct (with regards to MO and striking frequency) as Torso Man and the Ripper.
I see absolutely no evidence to support the idea of 2 men working together, regardless of whether such a thing is borne out by history or not.

Cheers Abby,
Frank
Hi frank
But history does show one man committing different series. The recent golden state killer is a prime example.

And re two men working together... well it is borne out by history also and i think jerry has some good ideas about that concept here also!
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  #740  
Old 08-14-2018, 05:34 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Hi frank
But history does show one man committing different series. The recent golden state killer is a prime example.
And what happened when the Golden State killer was at large? Well, aome numbnuts with the police said that "Nah, a serial burglar won´t start raping" and "Nah, a rapist will not turn a murderer just like that, these were two men with different agendas".

And all the while, a little number of detectives pointed to the odd similarities - how all three series involved the killer securing multiple getaway routes out of the houses, how dishes were used as alarm systems, how the perp seemed to choose personal items over valuable ones when he took things away...

It was very evident all the time that there was just the one burglar, rapist AND killer - but people had a hard time understanding how such a person could move inbetween different crime types.

Good example, Abby!
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