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Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Varqm 12 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Varqm 27 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: Lechmere was Jack the Ripper - by Herlock Sholmes 1 hour and 24 minutes ago.
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Motive, Method and Madness: Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature? - by Yabs 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Any updates, or opinions on this witness. - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.

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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #581  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:45 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post

Because the afternoon/evening papers quite unanimously report that Kelly was alive and in public late Friday morning. Long after he had seen her.
Cuts no ice whatsoever with me, Jon.
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  #582  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:51 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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As I keep mentioning, Lewis saw this unidentified loiterer (Hutchinson?) opposite Millers Court, while this other man & woman - being the worse for drink & hatless, pass up the court.
" I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court."
That ONE report is completely at odds with every other, and with Lewis's witness statement.
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  #583  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:51 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
That ONE report is completely at odds with every other, and with Lewis's witness statement.
I recall you think that "further on" means beyond Hutchinson (further on down the street). That is only your belief. "Further on" in my view means ahead of Lewis, as Lewis was following on some distance behind this couple.

Just look at her inquest testimony.
- First Lewis talks about passing the Spitalfields clock.
- Then, she talks about seeing the man loitering opposite Millers Court.
- Then, she mentions this couple who passed along.
- Then, talks about the loiterer again.
- Then, about arriving at the Keylers.

Take a look at this pic.



The red circles indicate a dash " - " signifying a break in her testimony, where a question was asked by the Coroner.
As can be seen her reference to this couple, "-- another young man with a woman passed along", is an interruption, by a question, of her talking about the loiterer.
So this is not a sequential narrative, it is a series of replies to questions unknown.
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  #584  
Old 07-23-2018, 08:29 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
I recall you think that "further on" means beyond Hutchinson (further on down the street). That is only your belief. "Further on" in my view means ahead of Lewis, as Lewis was following on some distance behind this couple.

Just look at her inquest testimony.
- First Lewis talks about passing the Spitalfields clock.
- Then, she talks about seeing the man loitering opposite Millers Court.
- Then, she mentions this couple who passed along.
- Then, talks about the loiterer again.
- Then, about arriving at the Keylers.

Take a look at this pic.



The red circles indicate a dash " - " signifying a break in her testimony, where a question was asked by the Coroner.
As can be seen her reference to this couple, "-- another young man with a woman passed along", is an interruption, by a question, of her talking about the loiterer.
So this is not a sequential narrative, it is a series of replies to questions unknown.
Hi
Have you any corroboration to your explantion for the dashes.

To my mind it could just me the writer used a dash instead of a comma. I cannot imagine all those interruptions which you suggest.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #585  
Old 07-23-2018, 08:39 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Jon,

The Victoria Home expressly prohibited sleeping in the dormitories during the day, especially for free, otherwise every lodger in the distract would have taken night shifts and enjoyed free doss during the day.

What’s this “normal activity of a serial killer” you’ve suddenly become obsessed with? What activities beyond the murders themselves would you categorise as “normal activity” for a serial killer? Who are these “strictly the basics” serial killers who commit the murders, engage in these other “normal activities” (whatever they are), but never venture beyond that?

I see you’re now suggesting that the PC advised Hutchinson to go to the police station, so let’s just explore that particular scenario for a moment. Let’s draw a discreet veil, at least for the time being, over the policeman’s failure to note Hutchinson’s name and address.

Why didn’t he follow the PC’s advice and go to the police station?

According to you, remember, a fellow lodger had just lent him a copy of Lloyds Weekly News with its “revelation” that the medical examination supported an early morning, small hours time of death after all. This, according to you, was Hutchinson’s “eureka!” moment, when he finally relinquished all those “later ToD” reports that he’d been diligently stockpiling since Friday - the ones that had hitherto led him up the garden path and formed the basis of his excuse for not alerting the police earlier.

So I ask again, why didn’t Hutchinson do as the PC advised and go to the police station, now that his alleged “excuse” (for inactivity) no longer existed?

Quote:
If the same story is repeated in every paper, there's more chance Hutchinson will be aware of the story.
But if Hutchinson was reading the papers, there is next to no chance of him missing out on the Kennedy and Prater (etc) accounts indicating a much earlier a time; a time consistent with the Astrakhan episode. Picture an innocent Hutchinson reading a free newspaper in the Victoria Home common room on Saturday 10th November - he would have as much exposure to the “early” reports as he would to the “late” ones. Yet according to you, he puts all his eggs in the latter basket, considering it justification for sitting on both his arse and his ever so slightly crucial evidence, for three whole days.

Quote:
“All you have to do is judge how inconsistent the times for that cry of murder were, with the various stories of Kelly being alive in the late morning - all consistent stories.”
But it doesn’t matter if the times of the “murder” cries varied slightly. What matters is that they are all broadly consistent with Hutchinson’s alleged experience, which they were. Or are you suggesting that he dismissed the entire report because of minor timing inconsistencies?

You must understand that it wasn’t Hutchinson’s job to play detective. It didn’t fall to him to collate and assess other eyewitness evidence. It was his basic moral responsibility to relate HIS eyewitness evidence the moment he learned of the murder.

Of one thing I remain confident, and that is that an innocent, truthful Hutchinson would not have “reasoned” as you do. Remember, as far as Hutchinson would have been able to ascertain from the press, Astrakhan man was the last man seen in Kelly’s company before she died. That fact alone would provided sufficient impetus, to any sane human being with some semblance of a moral compass, to come forward.

I think you’ve just about had your shout on this subject, Jon. You haven’t convinced anyone with your “reports of a later time of death = justification for Hutchinson’s delay” hypotheses because it makes absolutely no sense from a moral or logical perspective. It’s not impossible (unlike your Daily News “passing up” couple which you’re still trying to flog); just epically unlikely.

All the best,
Ben

Last edited by Ben : 07-23-2018 at 08:45 AM.
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  #586  
Old 07-23-2018, 09:01 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
As I keep mentioning, Lewis saw this unidentified loiterer (Hutchinson?) opposite Millers Court, while this other man & woman - being the worse for drink & hatless, pass up the court.
" I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court."

So, someone was there. Deny Astrachan existed all you like, but there was a man & woman doing just what Hutchinson said Kelly & Astrachan was doing.

Funny how the anti-Hutchinson subscribers, when faced with a character that proves their theory wrong, resort to claiming "he didn't exist".
The only way out for the defective theory I guess
hi wick
even if Aman did exist, hutch by his own account was waiting for a long time outside her place, when Aman was in there with mary. hutch could have waitied for him to leave then made his move.
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Last edited by Abby Normal : 07-23-2018 at 09:04 AM.
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  #587  
Old 07-23-2018, 09:40 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Hi
Have you any corroboration to your explantion for the dashes.

To my mind it could just me the writer used a dash instead of a comma. I cannot imagine all those interruptions which you suggest.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
The comma's are already present.
You of all people should know a witness only responds to questions.
Look at the press versions for a sample of questions asked.
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  #588  
Old 07-23-2018, 11:00 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I cannot imagine all those interruptions which you suggest.
If it was Crawford's style to cut across his witnesses to that extent, it's amazing that the inquest wound up as quickly as it did!
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Last edited by Sam Flynn : 07-23-2018 at 11:03 AM.
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  #589  
Old 07-23-2018, 11:34 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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According to the Morning Advertiser account, the coroner put 32 questions to Joe Barnett during his testimony.
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  #590  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:03 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
You haven’t convinced anyone with your “reports of a later time of death = justification for Hutchinson’s delay” hypotheses because it makes absolutely no sense from a moral or logical perspective.
Elizabeth Long saw Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street shortly before her murder on Sept 8. By all appearances, Long didn't come forward until Sept. 11th. A three day delay. Her moral perspective was obviously flawed.

Lawende, Levy, and Harris saw a woman they believed to have been Eddowes just outside an entry into Mitre Square. They undoubtedly learned of the murder later that morning, but certainly didn't rush down to the nick. They appear to have been discovered during house-to-house inquiries on Oct 1st --some 36 hours later. For all we know, they never would have come forward.

A lot of people are hesitant to get involved, Ben. Witnesses come forward days later, weeks later, months later. Anyone who reads true crime knows this.
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