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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #551  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:50 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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We only have Hutchinson's account that it was him standing in the doorway of the lodging house. As far as I am aware Sarah Lewis never identified him, and only gave an outline description of the man she saw.
Consider this, the Maxwells were looking after Crossinghams at night but they didn't see him loitering there, [Best part of an hour]. Nor did any of the residents, and there must have been dozens [at least] sleeping that particular night, any one of them plus Henry Maxwell could have been the person seen in the doorway [don't forget he was only seen for a couple of minutes, not an hour]. Plus what time did the Lodging house shut its doors? I have read on this thread that they generally stopped open till 4 am, Hutch was there between 2 and 3. Apologies if I am wrong here but wasn't Mcarthy's shop generally open till 3 in the morning as well? That was directly across the road from Hutch's vantage point. We have to consider Mary as well. We know she was the worst for wear with the drink a couple of hours earlier and according to Cox could hardly say goodnight. Would she really go back out down Whitechapel after 1 am in that state on a wet night? Plus nobody seems to have heard or seen her go out either, door shutting etc
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  #552  
Old 07-22-2018, 11:01 AM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is online now
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And the simple answer is, RJ, that I doubt Hutchinson existed.
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  #553  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:19 PM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi RJ,

A few posts ago you asked me if any of the serial killers I exemplified had injected themselves into their investigations, to which I responded in the affirmative in the case of Gary Ridgway. Since then discussion has ballooned into a wider one concerning the chronology of the Green River case and the alleged shortcomings of “profiling” and its FBI practitioners.

What hasn’t altered, however, is the fact that Gary Ridgway did indeed inject himself into the Green River investigation under the guise of a helpful informant who knew one of the victims. He did so independently and voluntarily, approaching the King County police in an entirely separate episode to his previous dealings with the authorities.

It was most emphatically not the case that he made his disclosures regarding Christensen when already in police custody as a suspect. Faulty though some of his conclusions may have been, it will take a lot more evidence for me to accuse Douglas of outright lying on this particular point. To be fair though, you quickly abandoned that theory when you discovered that the date of the “injecting” occurred in May of 1984, almost a year after his questioning in connection with the Malvar crime.

If you’re adamant that Ridgway’s prior contact with the police somehow invalidates any comparison with Hutchinson, there are plenty of other serial killers who approached the police as “witnesses” despite having no such prior contact. Not that I see any real obstacle to a Ridgway-Hutchinson comparison. It would hardly make any difference to the likely motivation in both cases (preempting the recognition of a link between himself and the crime via a false informant persona).

I imagine a great many men came under the investigative spotlight, however briefly, during the course of the Green River investigation.

Quote:
“We are asked to believe that George Hutchinson boldly walked in the front door of a police station out of the blue, plopped himself in a chair, threw his shoulders back, asked to see a detective, and then told them in no uncertain terms that he spent 45 minutes outside the worst crime scene in modern UK history.”
Well, any proposition may be coloured implausible by adding a touch of wholly unnecessary hyperbole, but if you’re asserting that no serial killer has ever approached the police pretending to be a witness (despite having no prior police contact), then it’s not so much “prolifling” you’re flying in the face of; its cold hard fact.

But meanwhile, back on topic, let’s see if Jon’s having any luck trying to convince people that Hutchinson delayed coming forward with his evidence because of an utterly irrational, press-fed conviction that Kelly was killed after 9.00am that morning.

Last edited by Ben : 07-22-2018 at 02:30 PM.
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  #554  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:33 PM
Ben Ben is offline
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...Nope.

Doesn’t look like it.

Quote:
“Henry Holland left the scene of the murder in Hanbury St. to find a constable, he said:
" I then went for a policeman in Spitalfields Market. The officer told me he could not come."
Holland’s request was for the constable to leave his “fixed point” and accompany him to the Chapman murder scene, whereas Hutchinson’s story involved no such movement on the part of the copper. All the latter had to do - as professional duty and basic common sense dictated - was make a note of Hutchinson’s name and address along with the basic details of his story. That he was in a position to achieve such a basic expedient whilst remaining as “fixed” as he liked to his precious “point” begs the question, why didn’t he?

The answer is that he obviously never existed, and was simply invented by Hutchinson to explain away his failure to alert the police earlier, perhaps mindful of the unsettling “coincidence” of his visit to the police on Monday evening “coinciding” just a bit too well with the closure of the inquest.

Quote:
Er, No!
The document to which you refer is the day's end report of his duties.
Er, No!
The document to which I refer related specifically to the Hutchinson statement. That WAS the interrogation report, unluckily for you and your naive hope that there was another, conveniently-lost-to-history report which magically clears up all doubts and suspicions regarding Hutchinson (if only it wasn’t left in that cabinet that got bombed in the blitz, eh?).

Quote:
“The fact that reports of a late morning ToD far outnumbered anything else tends to make a convincing case.”
Again with this perplexing “outnumbered” nonsense. I’ve already explained, a) the “late morning ToD” reports certainly did not outnumber earlier reported times, and b) even if they did, what sane and rational conclusion could you possibly draw from it? You do realise that the newspapers were reporting the same stories? It was not a case of several different women called Caroline Maxwell all independently seeing the same event, with different newspapers being allocated to report on each different Caroline Maxwell!

Unless the above absurdity was true, the reports of a “late morning ToD” don’t somehow converge to form an army and “gang up” against the “early morning ToD” reports.

Moreover, the likelihood is that an innocent, truthful Hutchinson probably stuck with the one newspaper, and would thus have been exposed to both versions. He did not, as I’ve tried to explain before, collate all available press sources and tally up “late” versus “early”. Why would he?

Quote:
“Ever heard of "It'll not happen to me", do you think that only applies to our generation?”
Within reason, Jon.

I doubt many would risk jumping into a tank of Great Whites after exclaiming “It’ll not happen to me” (i.e. getting gobbled), but to dress as Astrakhan did in that locality would require a comparable degree of folly.

Quote:
“What is the norm, a serial killer who does, or one who doesn't?”
I’m not sure what you mean by that. Which serial killers conform to the “norm” in all their deeds? “Just the good and honest ABC of serial killing for me, thanks. None of that frilly stuff!” Who are these beige/vanilla serialists, Jon?

All the best,
Ben

Last edited by Ben : 07-22-2018 at 02:58 PM.
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  #555  
Old 07-22-2018, 03:02 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post

Taking my tongue out of my cheek, the answer to your question is "yes", although I still find it odd that Hutchinson didn't come forward independently as soon as the news hit the streets and before the confusing/conflicting press reports started to appear. This could have been as early as Friday afternoon or evening; Saturday at the latest.
Are you kidding, the guy has been up all night walking the streets. As soon as the Victoria Home opened, his new lodgings, he crashed until late afternoon.....

(tongue in cheek, or?)
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  #556  
Old 07-22-2018, 03:11 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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So when is that Holm/Smyth Summit ever gonna happen? Or did I miss it?
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  #557  
Old 07-22-2018, 03:16 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Hi RJ,
..... but if you’re asserting that no serial killer has ever approached the police pretending to be a witness (despite having no prior police contact), then it’s not so much “prolifling” you’re flying in the face of; its cold hard fact.
I think you'll find it wasn't the normal activity of a serial killer.
Generally, it is what is judged, normal that is used to support a theory - not special pleading.
Leastwise, that is how legitimate theories are pursued.

Quote:
But meanwhile, back on topic, let’s see if Jon’s having any luck trying to convince people that Hutchinson delayed coming forward with his evidence because of an utterly irrational, press-fed conviction that Kelly was killed after 9.00am that morning.
Why do you think debates are a competition?
What logic has persuaded you that investigations are decided by a democratic process?
Do you think Swanson, Abberline, Reid, asked for a show of hands before heading out for the day?
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  #558  
Old 07-22-2018, 03:52 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Holland’s request was for the constable to leave his “fixed point” and accompany him to the Chapman murder scene, whereas Hutchinson’s story involved no such movement on the part of the copper.
We don't know what Hutchinson said to the PC, or what the PC told Hutchinson to do, if anything.
His next remark was "...but did not go to the police-station."
Who said anything about going to the police station?
Possibly the PC, and likely Abberline too.


Quote:
All the latter had to do - as professional duty and basic common sense dictated - was make a note of Hutchinson’s name and address along with the basic details of his story.
And, you know he didn't ...because?

Quote:
The answer is that he obviously never existed,.....
Obvious to whom?

Quote:
Er, No!
The document to which I refer related specifically to the Hutchinson statement. That WAS the interrogation report,...
"Specifically"?
I think you need to take another look at it.


Quote:
Again with this perplexing “outnumbered” nonsense. I’ve already explained, a) the “late morning ToD” reports certainly did not outnumber earlier reported times,...
Hey, Press Search is working now - the challenge is still open to you to prove me wrong. I know you would love to be able to do that.
Last time you could only come up with about 6, did you feel rushed?

Quote:
.....and b) even if they did, what sane and rational conclusion could you possibly draw from it? You do realise that the newspapers were reporting the same stories?
Ah, so you are not so sure after all. That's ok I'm used to the way you argue
It is not a case of numbers, it is a case of how widespread the reporting was.
If the same story is repeated in every paper, there's more chance Hutchinson will be aware of the story. And, when repeated the next day, even more chance. Not forgetting the public will also begin to accept what they read.


Quote:
It was not a case of several different women called Caroline Maxwell all independently seeing the same event, with different newspapers being allocated to report on each different Caroline Maxwell!
It wasn't just Maxwell though was it. M.Lewis also provided a similar story, and others at the Ringers. More than one source.

As opposed to those cries of "Murder", was it 1:45, 2:00, 3:00 or 3:45?
All you have to do is judge how inconsistent the times for that cry of murder were, with the various stories of Kelly being alive in the late morning - all consistent stories.
This is simple, judge between "inconsistent" and "consistent" - you have five minutes......this is not difficult.


Quote:
I’m not sure what you mean by that. Which serial killers conform to the “norm” in all their deeds? “Just the good and honest ABC of serial killing for me, thanks. None of that frilly stuff!” Who are these beige/vanilla serialists, Jon?
You should be sure, you edited my comment in reply to your theory about serial killers who come forward as a witness.
How normal was it for serial killers across the board to do such a thing?
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  #559  
Old 07-22-2018, 03:58 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Nelson View Post
So when is that Holm/Smyth Summit ever gonna happen? Or did I miss it?
I would think it was worth waiting for......I mean...
I wouldn't think it was worth waiting for.
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  #560  
Old 07-22-2018, 06:01 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Dear Harry and/or other Hutchinson theorists,

Perhaps this has been addressed, but I don’t recall. I don’t quite understand one point, so perhaps someone can explain it.

If Hutchinson’s suspect did not exist, if he was just an imaginary Jewish Music Hall performer as Simon suggests, why is Hutchinson loitering across from Millers Court?

Or do you think he was standing for two hours waiting for Blotchy Client #1 to come out?

Or do you think he was never standing there at all?

Does a person stand across from a court waiting for his own imaginary suspect? If not, why is he loitering?

I don’t quite understand what is being argued.

In other words, how do you explain the hour delay between the spotting of the wall lounger across from the court at 2 a.m and the alleged cry of “murder!” at 3 a.m.? Was he waiting to get up his nerve?

And is this the modus operandi of the Ripper? Did he similarly stand around Bucks Row and Mitre Square for an hour or two before striking?

Or do you think Blotchy has been in that room for two hours and the Ripper is remarkably patient?

The existence of Astrakhan could explain why a man was waiting across from the court. What is your explanation for it?

No mockery intended. It’s a serious question.
Hi rj
These are my two favored scenarios

1. Hutch never sees mary that night and is either waiting for her to return or for her guest to leave.

2. Hutch sees mary they have borrow money chat she leaves him and he shortly thereafter returns to wait for her return.

In both scenarios There is no Aman.
In scenario 1 the guest is probably blotchy.

Also he may have waited like he said but got tired of it, left and come back an hour later 4ish and this time found her alone.

If hutch wasnt her killer than i think blotchy was.

At very least hutch is a lying conman
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but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline

Last edited by Abby Normal : 07-22-2018 at 06:03 PM.
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