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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #511  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:24 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
With three completely different Hutchinson signatures on it ....
Too right I have issues with it
Having issues with evidence is fine, but to say it therefore doesn't exist seems somewhat disingenuous.
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  #512  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:34 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Not true, Jon.

We can criticise the PC, or rather conclude that Hutchinson made him up, on the basis that he would have been wretchedly derelict in his duty ....
His duty is to pursue his assignment. Which, in the scenario proposed here, is to police the market, for the market, on market property, in a time period designated by the market.

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So what exactly do you contend was conveniently absent from the statement, but which came up in the “interrogation by Abberline” then?
I think it is necessary to accept if Abberline claimed he conducted an interrogation, that he will write down all Hutchinson's responses.
What Abberline learned is open to debate, what is not defensible is to believe he wrote nothing down, or did not learn anything more than what was on the initial statement.
You're the dab-hand at speculation, go ahead amuse yourself.


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......it would have taken some extremely selective hearing/reading for him to “filter” out all references to an early morning time of death, in common with the other victims.
You keep repeating the "early morning time of death", yet have trouble finding sufficient examples. This is another case of manning the trenches to defend an argument.

It might interest you to know that the Sunday press is where we first read a more assertive theory of an early morning murder.
In a column with a subtitle - Result of Medical Examination, we read a telling conclusion.
"The conclusion arrived at was that the murdered woman had undoubtedly been dead for some hours when first discovered, and that in all probability the crime was committed as early as two or three o'clock in the morning".
Lloyds Weekly News, 11 Nov. 1888.

Is it just coincidence then that it was on this same morning that Hutchinson decided to relay his story to a constable?

Quote:
....I think you’ll find that “entertainment” was the very last thing on Hutchinson’s mind if he was truly homeless and had been trudging for hours.
Like I said, eyeing him up for a robbery is quite feasible. And, possibly another reason why he was reluctant to come forward at first. He might have had criminal intent on his mind.
All conjecture aside, if you find yourself at a crime scene, around the time of a murder, the more obvious response by anyone is to make yourself scarce.
It was common knowledge that to be incriminated in a crime you really had to be found to be present. Once an individual put several streets between themselves and the crime, the police would have a difficult time connecting you with the crime.
Coming forward is that last thing you would do.
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  #513  
Old 07-21-2018, 06:42 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by harry View Post
People outside chatting,or men idly standing around outside buildings,might have been a familier sight in Dorset street,in the warmer summer nights,,but on a cold inclement November morning between 2 and 3 am? Are you serious Jon?
If it isn't too cold to be out, and clearly it wasn't. Then a person with nowhere to stay for the night, has no choice.

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Many criminals,including killers,have been allowed to leave after an initial interview,.....
Correct, and that is what Hutchinson did. His initial interview was with Badham, and he walked out.

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......we do not know what the thoughts of Aberline might have been,or what verbal expressions of guilt or innocence were expressed afterwards.
You don't think he would put any reservations in writing to his superiors, just in case this turned out to be the killer?
I'm sure he would.


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You Jon base almost all your arguements of a trustworthy Hutchinson on one word written by Aberline,opinion.A word that conveys a message that Aberline was not completely convinced.
Would you leave a degree of ambiguity about a person's truthfulness, in a report to your superior?
I think you would be called in to make your report 'clear,' don't you?
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  #514  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:37 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
....
And yet with Kelly ,the only one of the three who really was unrecognizable you seem to have no hesitation in accepting Barnett's 'peep through the window' ..... not for me , sorry
Hi P.S.

Barnett's testimony at the inquest, "I have seen the body. I identify her by the ear (hair?) and the eyes. I am positive it is the same woman."

Is due to the fact the witnesses were paraded through Shoreditch Church before the inquest began where the body was laid in it's box. So the body had been cleaned up and made as presentable as it could be.
Whatever was seen through the window on Friday morning is not relevant at this point for identification purposes.
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  #515  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:41 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Barnett wasn't going by the photo, but would have performed the identification at the mortuary after Kelly had been cleaned, and possibly stitched up. .....
Sorry, didn't mean to echo your argument.
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  #516  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:45 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Having issues with evidence is fine, but to say it therefore doesn't exist seems somewhat disingenuous.
The statement exists
Whether a man called George Hutchinson existed is quite different .
There's a possibility that a man using that name gave a statement .That it was a pseudonym appears inescapable as he struggled to remember his signature from one page to another .
You would then have to question what drove a man to enter a police station at the height of the murders , give an elaborate , unbelievable statement accompanied with a false name minutes after the inquest closed .
Until his discovery there also remains a possibility that no such person existed and we are looking at a police ploy (possibly in the hope of smoking out an accomplice ) .... so many possibilities but what we shouldn't be doing is taking things on faith because it was written or said by a policeman .
Policing was very different pre 1980 than it is today .
And on the subject of the word of the police .... why is it that ripperology defends Abberline's word forever and at the same time deny the existence of the Hanbury Street coins confirmed under oath by Reid at the McKenzie inquest .
Double standards dependent upon which outcome ripperology wants
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  #517  
Old 07-21-2018, 07:53 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by packers stem View Post

There is no evidence to suggest that Barnett visited the mortuary at all other than a suggestion in the times where the reporter wasn't actually quoting .
Possibly, witnesses may not have accompanied the jury. It's difficult to look when the Press Search is still not working.
As principal witness, Barnett being her companion, the police will take him to the mortuary to identify the body as part of his statement.
There really is no-one else available.

Looking through a broken window into a dark room is not acceptable, so there's no point in thinking this was how the I.D. was done.
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  #518  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:17 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Hi P.S.

Barnett's testimony at the inquest, "I have seen the body. I identify her by the ear (hair?) and the eyes. I am positive it is the same woman."

Is due to the fact the witnesses were paraded through Shoreditch Church before the inquest began where the body was laid in it's box. So the body had been cleaned up and made as presentable as it could be.
Whatever was seen through the window on Friday morning is not relevant at this point for identification purposes.
Hi Jon
You've popped your own (hair) in the brackets ? As you know full well that wasn't in the official transcript .

And no , witnesses weren't taken to Shoreditch at all ... the Jury and the reporter from the Pall Mall Gazette unless you find evidence to the contrary .
In fact even up until the evening of the 15th the public were not allowed access to the coffin as this snippet from the evening news of the 16th shows ...

SYMPATHY IN LONDON
As an instance of the widespread sympathy with the unfortunate victims in the East-end which prevails throughout this great metropolis of strangers, it may be stated that last evening a young lady took to Mr. M'Carthy a beautiful floral wreath which she had made for this the purpose, and desired to place it personally on the coffin of the deceased. In consequence of the funeral arrangements not having been completed, this, she was informed, she could not do.

There is zero evidence that anybody who could possibly have known Kelly witnessed the body outside of 13 Miller's Court

Nick
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  #519  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:30 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Sorry, didn't mean to echo your argument.
I think of it as "seconded" rather than an echo, Jon. Thanks!
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  #520  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:33 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
So much supposition there it's difficult to know where to begin
Not supposition, but common sense and an awareness that identification at a mortuary was the norm, if not standard procedure.
Quote:
There is no evidence to suggest that Barnett visited the mortuary
You think they were going to shove his face into the minced-up remains on the bed? I know the Victorian era was tough, but they weren't barbarians.
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