Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
General Discussion: A broken down masher - by Sam Flynn 24 minutes ago.
General Discussion: A broken down masher - by Bridewell 49 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by rjpalmer 1 hour and 18 minutes ago.
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - by Bridewell 1 hour and 28 minutes ago.
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - by Bridewell 2 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Lechmere/Cross, Charles: So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel? - (37 posts)
Witnesses: Kennedy and Lewis - (29 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Most Ridiculous Theory - (10 posts)
General Discussion: A broken down masher - (4 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: distances between kills.odd - (3 posts)
Hutchinson, George: Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson? - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Torso Killings

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #101  
Old 07-20-2018, 04:38 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,870
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
Not that it's so important, Rocky, but Dr. Thomas Neill Cream comes to mind.


All the best,
Frank
franks frank. just to clarify, it sounds like Cream didnt kill any sex workers in the uk until 1891 so still no one before the ripper?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 07-20-2018, 05:58 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 830
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
MOs can vary with the same killer-its a well known fact. and the apparent difference in MO can easily be because the killer had different circs.
They may vary their MO and they may go from high risk to low(er) risk, Abby, but I haven’t come any serial killer case in which the murderer changes to an MO that is as extremely more risky than his original MO as would be the case if Torso man changed into the Ripper (and then, oddly enough, back again).
Quote:
as in his chop shop wasnt available and had to kill on the streets.
According to the medical evidence the Whitehall victim was killed shortly before Nichols and parts of her body were dumped after Chapman was murdered. This means the Whitehall body was stored during at least the Nichols and Chapman murders and, thus, that Torso man had some private place where he could leave the body without it being noticed. Do you think (it likely that) his “chop shop” and “storehouse” were 2 different places then?

All the best,
Frank
__________________
"You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:06 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 830
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
franks frank. just to clarify, it sounds like Cream didnt kill any sex workers in the uk until 1891 so still no one before the ripper?
Like I said, Rocky, it's not that important for the reasons already mentioned.
__________________
"You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:26 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
They may vary their MO and they may go from high risk to low(er) risk, Abby, but I haven’t come any serial killer case in which the murderer changes to an MO that is as extremely more risky than his original MO as would be the case if Torso man changed into the Ripper (and then, oddly enough, back again).
According to the medical evidence the Whitehall victim was killed shortly before Nichols and parts of her body were dumped after Chapman was murdered. This means the Whitehall body was stored during at least the Nichols and Chapman murders and, thus, that Torso man had some private place where he could leave the body without it being noticed. Do you think (it likely that) his “chop shop” and “storehouse” were 2 different places then?

All the best,
Frank
well if it was stored then perhaps, who knows?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:40 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,870
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
They may vary their MO and they may go from high risk to low(er) risk, Abby, but I haven’t come any serial killer case in which the murderer changes to an MO that is as extremely more risky than his original MO as would be the case if Torso man changed into the Ripper (and then, oddly enough, back again).
Have a look at the Mad Butcher, or the Cleveland Torso Killer as he is also known.

Quote:
eptember 1934: A young man finds the lower half of a women’s torso, thighs still attached, but amputated at the knees, washed up on the shores of Lake Erie just east of Bratenahl. Cuyahoga County Coroner A.J. Pierce noted some sort of chemical preservative on the skin which had turned it red, tough and leathery. The subsequent search yielded only a few other body parts. The body was that of a female in her mid-thirties. The head was never found. The woman was never identified. She is only referred to as “The Lady of the Lake”. It wasn’t until two years later that this find was included in the official killing total and thus became known as victim #0. It would be another year before the case began officially, and then it would be in another part of the city-the now infamous Kingsbury Run.

September 1935: Two teenage boys discover the decapitated, emasculated corpse of a white male at the base of Jackass Hill where East 49th Street dead ends into Kingsbury Run. The body, naked save for a pair of socks, was clean and drained of blood. There were rope burns around both wrists. Coroner Pierce determined the cause of death had been decapitation. Fingerprints identified this victim as Edward Andrassy, a twenty-eight-year old white male. Andrassy had an arrest record, was rumored to be a homosexual, and frequented the Roaring Third. Police discovered a second body nearby, also decapitated and emasculated. It appeared to be covered with the same chemical preservative as the Lady of the Lake. This body apparently had been dead for at least a couple of weeks. The forty-year old white male was never identified.

January 1936: A woman discovers about half the body of a female neatly wrapped in newspaper and packed in two half-bushel baskets. The baskets were left alongside the Hart Manufacturing building on Central Avenue near East 20th Street. Everything except the head was recovered about ten days later in a vacant lot on nearby Orange Avenue. As in the case of Edward Andrassy, the cause of death had been decapitation. For some reason, however, the killer had waited for rigor mortis to set in before disarticulating the rest of the body. Fingerprints again would allow the identification of one Florence Polillo, waitress, bar maid and prostitute. At the time of her death she resided at East 32nd Street and Carnegie, right on the edge of the Roaring Third.

June 1936: Early one morning in Kingsbury Run, two young boys discovered the head of a white male wrapped in a pair of trousers close to the East 55th Street bridge.
http://www.clevelandpolicemuseum.org...torso-murders/

Considering how much the butcher changed up his mo I don't understand why sometimes dismembering woman and packaging them up and sometimes decapitating males, post mortem mutilation of genitals and leaving them outside in fields is acceptable modus operani variation but the ripper/torso variations are not.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 07-20-2018, 06:42 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,870
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
Like I said, Rocky, it's not that important for the reasons already mentioned.
I asked for an example of an sk who killed sex workers in London in the 19th century and you provided so thank you very much. I am just curious if Jack is the first
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:35 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
I asked for an example of an sk who killed sex workers in London in the 19th century and you provided so thank you very much. I am just curious if Jack is the first
you mean the Torsoripper. ; )
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 07-20-2018, 07:44 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,090
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
Have a look at the Mad Butcher, or the Cleveland Torso Killer as he is also known.



http://www.clevelandpolicemuseum.org...torso-murders/

Considering how much the butcher changed up his mo I don't understand why sometimes dismembering woman and packaging them up and sometimes decapitating males, post mortem mutilation of genitals and leaving them outside in fields is acceptable modus operani variation but the ripper/torso variations are not.
Hi Rocky and Frank

exactly rocky. Serial killers can change there MO up drastically, especially under differing circs.

just off the top of my head:
BTK mainly strangled but sometimes shot.

The recent GSK bludgeoned and sometimes shot-and geographically was all over the place.

Carl Panzram did everything every where.

Zodiac went from shooting to stabbing to shooting-changed victimology even-going from killing couples to a cab driver!


And Frank O in terms of risk-Bundy went from attacking girls in there rooms to a highly planned ruse in public and back to the most extreme risk at the end by rampaging in a sorority house!


comparing these the apparent change in MO between Torsoman and the ripper is nothing. both basically post mortem mutilation and removal of body parts.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 07-20-2018, 01:33 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,824
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
for someone who thinks Bury is the ripper (as you know hes one of my favored suspects too) I would think you would be amenable to a changing MO based on the killers personal circumstances!
I do but why would a dismemberment killer suddenly start killing outdoors and ripping throats and abdomens?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:50 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 11,483
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
I do but why would a dismemberment killer suddenly start killing outdoors and ripping throats and abdomens?
Indeed, and why would a killer who dismembered his victims in a leisurely manner over a period of more than a decade suddenly decide to publicly disembowel a handful of women in a blitz lasting a few weeks? Why would a dismemberment killer who killed, dismembered and dumped most of his victims in West London suddenly decide to disembowel women in East London?

The two series were clearly not the work of the same person. The differences are just too many, and too great.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.