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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #281  
Old 07-19-2018, 04:38 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
The point here Abby is that she knew she was around 24 and that she was from Limerick when interviewed by the press on the day of the murder
So yes , you would need to find another 24 year old Mary Jane from Limerick living in the court to write this off.
The fact that it was daylight,she lived opposite and would be well used to seeing her coming and going from the court and she actually carried out a conversation with somebody that she knew puts her testimony head and shoulders above anybody else .
No other witness ID comes even close to Maxwell
So for those reasons no , I can't accept that she could have been mistaken
Perhaps She had heard about mary before ever seeing/ meeting her. And there were alot of ypung women coming and going from the court, even marys room as she let them stay with her.
Maxwell own admission she only saw her a couple of times.
She was probably mistaken.
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  #282  
Old 07-19-2018, 05:29 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Phil Carter View Post
the foreshortening of the Christian name from George to Geo...
I don't see that as a problem, Phil, anymore than if someone had written "William" in full the first time and "Wm" subsequently. It's just an expedient, and I've been known to do something similar myself. (As a civil servant, I've often been required to sign multiple copies of things, so I'm speaking from experience.)
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  #283  
Old 07-19-2018, 06:55 AM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Hello Gareth,

Well.. In my youth I was a Purchasing Officer. I signed 50 orders per day. My previous boss taught me that I was signing an important document.. Therefore, take care when signing. My signature was almost the same each time. Likewise on credit cards etc.
As far as witness statements.. I have signed three in my life. The first two hand written, the last was last year which was on a pc and all I needed to do was sign it. On all three occasions.. The same rule as above applied. With care.
Now we don't actually know who this Hutchinson guy was. But he is giving a witness statement. An important one.
My bet is Badham.. Who may have written the statement, signed it at least once.. See previous post.


Phil
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  #284  
Old 07-19-2018, 07:02 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Both you and I are far more familiar with using our signatures than a young, poverty class man from the 19th century East End would have been, Phil.
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  #285  
Old 07-19-2018, 07:12 AM
DJA DJA is offline
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Greek parachutist warning!
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  #286  
Old 07-19-2018, 07:46 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Carter View Post
When one looks at the complete statement, the person who wrote "H Division" is clearly the writer of one of the signatures. Exactly the same H is used.
They're similar, but differ in certain ways. The H on the left (from "H Division") is fluently and confidently wrought, whereas the H on the right (p1 signature) is rather more crude in comparison. Likewise, the flourishes on the upper left hand side of the H are different; the one on the right is a tight, neat little squiggle, the one on the left is loose, open and rather more laboured. Finally, the way the bottom leftmost loop on the H flows through to the upper loop on the right is differently executed in either case.

Name:  H.jpg
Views: 79
Size:  6.4 KB

It strikes me that, whoever wrote the H on the left was very used to writing in that way, whilst that whoever wrote the H on the left was writing in a decorative manner in which he was not particularly practiced.
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  #287  
Old 07-19-2018, 08:11 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
They're similar, but differ in certain ways. The H on the left (from "H Division") is fluently and confidently wrought, whereas the H on the right (p1 signature) is rather more crude in comparison. Likewise, the flourishes on the upper left hand side of the H are different; the one on the right is a tight, neat little squiggle, the one on the left is loose, open and rather more laboured. Finally, the way the bottom leftmost loop on the H flows through to the upper loop on the right is differently executed in either case.

Attachment 18722

It strikes me that, whoever wrote the H on the left was very used to writing in that way, whilst that whoever wrote the H on the left was writing in a decorative manner in which he was not particularly practiced.
theyre nothing like each other sam nor with toppys
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #288  
Old 07-19-2018, 08:15 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packers stem View Post
The capital is the most important letter of a signature and very unlikely to change.... certainly not within minutes
bingo. I made this very point with sam a while back.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #289  
Old 07-19-2018, 08:21 AM
packers stem packers stem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
theyre nothing like each other sam nor with toppys
There are three George Hutchinson signatures on the document .
The bottom of the first two pages and at the end of the statement followed by Badham and Arnold I think .
All three Hutchinson signatures are markedly different on the H
Page 2 looks natural and flowing , page 1 is an 'artistic' attempt and page 3 the H has been gone over a few times .
This statement is ALL that exists of the man supposedly named George Hutchinson , without this he doesn't exist ..... and the one thing it relies upon , namely the signature , is concerning .

The Abberline Diaries were discredited by a signature error ..... this statement belongs in the same place .It is no more reliable than them .
If it's OK for Hutchinson to sign his name differently on three sheets of paper then it's OK for Abberline to get his F and G back to front in later years 😀
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  #290  
Old 07-19-2018, 09:56 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
theyre nothing like each other sam nor with toppys
Let's keep Toppy out of this - I was only referring to what appears on the 1888 witness statement. The "meat" of these signatures is consistent on every page, and only the first "H" in the "Hutchinson" on p1 really differs. This "H" is not written in the same way as the "H" in "H Division", as the above montage shows and my accompanying post explains.
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